I checked the trash bag section at Hannaford today, to see if there was an exciting new display of PAYT bags and helpful information for getting started. No such luck.
But, at the checkout, the cashier did ask if I was from Brattleboro.
“Yes?”
“We have the new Pay As You Throw bags,” she said. They are for sale from the cashiers, not in the aisles.
I’ve been following along and know all about the options. I can choose small or large, and buy them in five and ten packs. Perhaps I should bite the bullet and buy some small ones.
“We only have large,” she said. “Five for $15.”
“Any idea if you’ll be getting the small ones?” I asked. She didn’t know.
The bags, I could see, were in a box, hidden away near her feet.
I decided to wait.
Austerity Hits Vermont
This is the year of punitive government fees. It hit me like a ton of bricks, starting early in the year — whacked by Town of Bratt for late payment of business tax (didn’t have it, post holiday cash flow hell). Then it was nice people at Dept of Labor — automatic $100 fine. Ouch. Cash flow problems are hell, but government fees and penalties that assume that people who can’t afford a bill when due will be better able to afford it next time if they double it are just whack. (I’m channeling the emotion of being whacked for this comment.)
Where was I? Oh, right, austerity. Really high administrative fees for everything are part of austerity — austerity for us, the citizens. The government, hit by less coming in and more going out, take it out on the citizenry wherever they can. It’s not exactly their fault. They just need to keep the wheels of government moving — like our parking department that barely breaks even but needs to be maintained anyway. Sorry, do I sound ornery? Maybe so, and if so, please don’t be offended. It’s just that being made to buy bags in 5 packs at the minimum when said 5 pack costs $15 is just whack. Who has a whole $15 to buy one grocery item? That’s a budget expense, pardon my french. Hearing that made me mad. It’s hard to imagine low income people coming up with that idea. (Would a smiley face emoticon help at this point? 😉
Oh well, life goes on. I’m looking forward to throwing away as little as possible. Good for the planet and all that. But I think the way the town and state have thought about trash has been less than thoughtful. If they had really thought about this kind of thing, they’d allow us to buy bags one at a time as well if they’re going to cost $3 apiece — really, $15 is a lot to put out at one time. That said, I’ve been cooking more beans lately and boning up on cheap vegetarian cooking. I have a feeling that’s the way of the future and will probably be good for my health.
single bags
At meetings earlier this year they said individual bags would be available at the Municipal Center, but not at stores.
Of course, if someone needs to drive there, they’ll likely have to pay for parking, adding slightly to the cost per bag.
Regressive taxes
Let’s call these fees what they are: regressive taxes. We are being stuck with all kinds of regressive taxes because power-holders don’t have the courage to tax according to ability to pay. Austerity is the myth spun by those who could easily afford more to keep the rest of us fighting over crumbs.
This is just more proof of
This is just more proof of how poorly implemented this program is. Not only was no consideration given to the ridiculous cost of these bags and how paying $3 for ONE trash bag will impact low income residents but people are also expected to hand over $15 for a few bags? I currently can buy 2 boxes of 30 large trash bags for $15.00. That’s enough trash bags to last for several months.
Are we expected to stop buying other basics so we can afford to purchase bags that will be thrown out? Punitive is exactly the right word for this program – at least the way Brattleboro has chosen to implement it.
payt impact
Thank you, Kris! Your comments are right on.
I am completely in favor of PAYT, but can’t understand why the bags will cost $3.00 each. Well, there goes any Social Security “Cost of Living” increase, and then some!
And I don’t buy the – Your taxes will be less because of the estimated $350,000 savings.
Reminds me of the old joke: Husband was horrified to learn that wife had bought new $10,000 diamond ring. She said, But dear, look at all the money I saved you. It was on sale, and its’ original price was $15,000. I know, I know, totally politically incorrect, but the jist fits.
What gets me is that it’s a given that taxes will go up! Never any thought as to how to bring taxes down. Other towns seem to manage to do this. But of course, this is Brattleboro.
Did anyone look at how much
Did anyone look at how much your municipal trash costs are on our tax bill? Is it higher than the projected yearly cost for bags? How can people complain about the costs if they don’t have the data to back up their argument?
An unintended consequence of the program is that people could start dumping their trash in the woods instead of paying. That bothers me a lot. Interesting that people are in a huff over $12/month and not a peep about the ecological impact of the program.
Why is nobody questioning WasteZero? They are being paid to produce the bags. “The company will also provide secure logistics and distribution for the bags.” We are paying a company to create and sell us trash bags that are no different from the bags we use today except for what, color and markings? Could we have investigated a less expensive solution like having a team of Brattleboro residents alter existing bags instead of relying on some company out of state? Why to trash bags need secure logistics and distribution?
“The program is projected to cut residential solid waste tonnage by up to 44%, saving Brattleboro approximately $110,000 per year in waste disposal costs. It is projected to increase recycling tonnage by 49%.” The 44% is their marketing-driven number, who knows what it will be in Bratt.
Sure it’s a regressive tax, but how to avoid that? Bring in your tax documents every time you buy bags?
Individual PAYT are available for purchase.
You can buy them one at a time — at either the Treasurer’s Office in the Municipal Building or at the Senior Center and Rec. Dept. office in the Gibson Aiken buildng.
But, think of how much more
But, think of how much more convenient this process would be if people could just buy 1 or2 bags when they do their grocery shopping. There is nothing user friendly about the way This program has been implemented. You want people to embrace this change yet do nothing to help that happen.
The bags come bar-coded and
The bags come bar-coded and packaged in rolls of five. It is not practicle (and maybe not possible, computer / inventory-wise) for store clerks to open packages and sell bags singularly.
Stores selling the bags are doing this as a community service. They make no money on the sale of the bags. It would not be reasonable to ask them to break open packages, even if it were possible. If the town required it we would run the chance that fewer stores, if any, would be willing to participate.
Individual bags are available as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
Chris, did you happen to
Chris, did you happen to notice if the 5 bag “option” is in any kind of container or are the bags just loose? Do we know if these bags are compostible?
Not loose
They seemed to be rolled, and in wrapped then in bags, but it was a bit hard to see.
It would be EASY for every place to sell single bags, if they come like this and are sold by the cashier.
“May I have 1 bag?”
Cashier takes one bag from a package set aside for this purpose.
“Thank you.”
PAYT Program
It is unfortunate that Hannaford has chosen to only offer the large PAYT bags. I am not sure what their thinking was in making this decision, but after scores of customers ask why they do not carry the small bags they may rethink their decision and order small bags to stock along side the large ones. Please ask them to carry both sizes.
All the other stores — Price Chopper, Brattleboro Food Coop, Dottie’s Discount Foods, Brown and Robers, Fireside True Value and Cumberland Farms carry BOTH sizes.
More than once I have heard, “Why should I pay $2 or $3/bag when the bags I buy now cost only a fraction of that?” The answer is that with PAYT the resident is not just buying a trash bag, but also financing the direct cost of collecting and disposing of the trash. The revenues go to the town to pay for collection and disposal…and the bag, itself, of course. The bags cost the town ±$0.23 to $0.32 per bag.
Over the course of the past month I have facilitated 9 public meetings for residents and meetings at Tri-Park and at each of the four Brattleboro Housing Partnership properties (Melrose Terrace, Hayes Court, Moore Court and Ledgewood Heights). All the meetings were well attended. At Tri-Park 35 residents crowded into the small meeting room. Many of the folks at those meetings were on fixed or low-income. In all the meetings I can only remember two folks who argued against PAYT in general or were upset at the price of the bags. Almost all of them were interested in how they can recycle better and how to participate in the curbside compost program to reduce the amount of trash that would have to go into the PAYT bags.
The PAYT bags — Why are they not compostable? I posed that question to Tom Goldy, who represents the largest manufacturer of compostable bags in the world, BioBag. If anyone would like to see compostable bags used in PAYT programs it would be Tom Goldy. He said, “It would not make economic sense to use a compostable bag for trash bound for the landfill. They cost 3-4 times as much (as a plastic bag) and DO NOT go away in a landfill, nothing really does. Compostable bags need oxygen (to decompose) and landfills are anaerobic.” In addition, compostable bags are not nearly as strong as a standard plastic trash bag. If Brattleboro, trying to be as ecological and environmental as possible, used compostable PAYT bags the cost would not be $2 and $3, but $3 and $4 per bag! And, as the weaker compostable PAYT bags failed under the heavy weight of the trash, the town would be hearing from countless residents complaining about the quality/strength of the bags.
I know of no town out of the hundreds and hundreds with a PAYT program that uses compostable bags. It would be a very misguided attempt at being environmentally conscious for Brattleboro to be the first.
Curbside composting is the key. I have weighed my household’s trash, recycling and compost for a total of 104 weeks. The longest coninuous stretch is ongoing at 36 weeks. I can say with certainty that if we put all our family’s compostables in the trash we would have to purchase 5.5 times more PAYT bags to put at the curb! Thorough recycling and participating in the curbside compost program are THE answers to reducing trash to ridiculously small levels! We put out an average of 3.3 lbs. of trash per week and 14.9 lbs. of compostables. When PAYT starts we will put out one large PAYT bag every 4-6 weeks; a total of 9-13 bags per year — a $27-$39 annual PAYT expense. If all our compostable went into PAYT bags our annual cost would be $148-$215. To me, it is a no-brainer.
Over the past 6-weeks apporximately 500 new residents have recently signed up for curbside compost. My best guess is that approximately two-thirds of our residences (± 3,000) have not yet signed up. I suspect, hope, that many of them will join the curbside compost program in the coming months.
It can be argued that PAYT comes up short in numerous ways. Certainly there are towns that have used different versions of PAYT (stickers, bands, barrels, etc.). The PAYT Committee held numerous warned public meetings since last July to develop the recommendations they made to the Selectboard. All known approaches to PAYT were looked at and discussed (no, we did not discuss the use of compostable bags, but if we had it would have been passed over quickly.). I beleive that the PAYT program that starts June 29th is the best one for Brattleboro.
Please know this — our trash is driven 300 miles round trip to be buried in the Coventry, Vermont landfill (Vermont’s only landfill). That is one heck of a carbon footprint! Our recycling and compostables are driven ±5-10 miles roundtrip — a footprint 98% smaller than that of trash! Do you want Brattleboro to be as environmentally conscious as possible where it comes to trash? I suggest you support PAYT and encourage your friends and neighbors to buy smart, reuse where possible, recycle all that they can and sign up for curbside compost!
The town will be watching the progress of PAYT in Brattleboro closely, identifying problems as they arise, and recording residents’ comments. The PAYT program will be tweaked or overhauled as necessary.
Lengthy comment submitted by
Lengthy comment submitted by Moss Kahler, Brattleboro’s Recycling Coordinator and member of the PAYT Committee.
Forgot to add -- the bags are
Forgot to add — the bags are sold only in rolls of 5 bags/roll. 10 bags in a roll is not offered.
And as I commented earlier, individual bags can be gotten at the Municipal Building and The Gibson Aiken Center.
Dear Mosski:
“financing the direct cost of trash”
And will there be a reduction on our tax bills compensating for the fact that we are now paying for our trash collection through the purchase of these bags? Where exactly will that reduction be showing up on the tax bills when they are sent out?
15 years of success
Our town and a number of the neighboring communities have had the PAYT system for about 15 years and it has worked very well. Even with the rollout, we never ever had an issue of “midnight” dumping. The added bonus of the Brattleboro system is the inclusion of composting which I imagine would save a lot more for me if offered. But then again, I do my own composting.
No, we don’t have bag available by the ones, but they are available in either small or large sizes at many points of purchase around town.
I doubt there will be a
I doubt there will be a reduction on the tax bill, they’re doing this to save money, not give us money back.
Tax cost shift
To Rosa’s question about reduction in taxes, that is the rub — even with the $1m taken out of our municipal budget for PAYT, we still have a slight increase in our property tax burden this year. For our businesses, this means that they only get hit for that slight increase because they are already paying for their own trash disposal, it was never provided by the town. For individual households there is the slight increase PLUS the new costs for the bags. So, this is a tax cost-shift where businesses get a break and homeowners pay more. Yes, it is putting the cost where it is incurred (at the household level) but comparing last year to this year we are definitely hitting the homeowner with more of the burden.
Hey Wait, But Mosski Said.......
But Mosski said:
“”Why should I pay $2 or $3/bag when the bags I buy now cost only a fraction of that?” The answer is that with PAYT the resident is not just buying a trash bag, but also financing the direct cost of collecting and disposing of the trash. The revenues go to the town to pay for collection and disposal…and the bag, itself, of course. The bags cost the town ±$0.23 to $0.32 per bag.”
If we are financing the direct cost of collecting and disposing of the trash then wouldn’t we get an equal percentage reduction on our tax bill of the amount we have been billed in the past for trash collection. Seems like otherwise the town is doing a little double dipping . . . or perhaps hiding (perhaps not intentionally LOL sarcastically) the true amount of this year’s tax increase. Is it really a slight increase if, in fact, we are picking up $1 million in additional trash collection costs. Seems to me that means we had a pretty damn big tax increase this year. Just wonderin’
As for saving those trash bags for a few weeks, won’t that get a little unhealthy what with all the smells and molds? Again just wonderin’
Yes, I imagine having several
Yes, I imagine having several small bags full of trash and food scraps( for those of us who do not have room to compost) will not only smell to high heaven but would attract files and then maggots. Certainly not something I want in my house. But, you didn’t expect this to be convenient, did you?
Lower property taxes?
Tax bills are not itemized, but if they were, the line item for trash collection and disposal would, indeed, be considerably lower than in the fiscal year starting this July 1st because of PAYT.
It is hard to predict (Though the PAYT Committee tried!) exactly how many bags would be sold and thus the amount of revenue that would come to the town. The Selectboard put in an anticipated revenue of $350,000 and lowered the amount of monies to be raised by taxes an equal amount.
So, “Yes”, there “will there be a (qualified) [my word] reduction on our tax bills compensating for the fact that we are now paying for our trash collection through the purchase of these bags.”
Bottom line — will your tax bill be smaller? No, other town expenses have grown (i.e. salaries, benfits, bond interest, etc.). But your property tax bill would have been even higher without the new PAYT program.
Yes but my expenses will be
Yes but my expenses will be higher because the tax bill went up and I still have to buy the garbage bags. So we can’t really say that the tax increase this year was slight, it was actually slight but then one has to factor in the cost of these bags. One a week would make a cost to household of $160 or so. Two a week which is probably more likely, haven’t seen how big they are, for a large household would mean $320 a year or so. It’s just that I like to see some accuracy so I would hope people don’t look at their tax bill and go whew that was a slight increase because that actually a little inaccurate with this new system. I’m actually okay with PAYT but I hope people are clear about how this is affecting them financially and how it affects the tax bills. Let’s do keep in mind that tax costs in this town then went up a minimum of slightly more than $350,000.
Double post, remove
Double post, remove
More BS
What I take issue with is all the hawking the SB did to the uninformed about how taxes were pretty level this year and hooray and etc. etc.
They completely (and I think intentionally) played down the rather large stealth tax increase that PAYT represents.
So yes, the waste disposal line item went down, but as you said that amount quickly disappeared due to other expenses increasing but no one seemed to advertise that part…
So our town budget of ~16 million went up by what, about $400k?
Anyone want to do some math to guess what the tax rate will be in 2020 at that rate of increase? It won’t be pretty. We havn’t even paid for the Police and Fire project yet, apparently having spent millions on overpaid folks making pretty drawings that we will now not even be utilizing.
Your post should be a Sticky
Your post should be a Sticky Note for this discussion here and on Facebook, where misinformation is running rampant. Appreciate the clarity, thank you. Am I correct to assume that 3,500 of our 12,000 residents are low or fixed-income?
Interesting idea to buy big bags and fill them up over a few weeks, hadn’t thought of that.
Number of low or fixed income residents.
I don’t know the answer to that one….You could consult census data to find out.
It seems that the number of
It seems that the number of residents on fixed or low incomes would – or should – have been essential information for both the PAYT committee and the Selectboard to have when the decision to not offer any reduced bag fees was confirmed. It seems that there might be a misconception of exactly how many people in Brattleboro live at or below the poverty line and that most of these residents are renters – who have most likely had their trash pickup included in their rent. Other towns have been able to come up with a solution for this very real problem yet it appears that very little if any thought was given to potential impact of the increased costs to a large population in town.
Common sense would tell you that if something is included in your rent and then that is taken away then you would see a small reduction in the rent amount. That isn’t happening- at least not with my landlord. Assuming someone uses 2 bags a month ( a low estimate to my mind if you can’t compost). That’s $72 yearly. That is 2 months of my electric bill; 2 months of prescription co-pays; a month of phone and internet. Not an insignificant sum to many of us.
Sticky note....
What is a “Sticky note” and how do I do that?
There are many people (
There are many people ( myself included) who would love to participate in the curbside compost program. Anyone who lives in a very small apartment with an equally small kitchen simply does not have the room for a compost bin or pail in their kitchen. I have to keep my recycling bins in my hall because there is no space in my apartment. If you factor in any physical disability that would prohibit taking compost out to an outside container every couple of days then you have an unworkable situation. It’s fnot particularly helpful to be told over and over again how successful the members of the Selectboard or PAYT committee have been at reducing their trash via composting and uber recycling.
Not everyone lives in a situation where all those things are possible. I recycle faithfully but my trash is not going to be any less on June 29th than it is today. You’re missing the point if you believe that paying $3 for a bag that now costs .26 is not going to make a difference to elderly and disabled people on a fixed income.
BS
And yet the amount of taxes assessed against property owners hasn’t gone down by the amount anticipated to be raised by the sale of these bags.
None of you in any of your workshops or meetings had the foresight to think that perhaps some residents in town need to utilize heavier-duty bags or bags larger than 32 gallons because not every single household in this town conforms to what a tiny handful of people deem “residential” trash.
You have left a huge gap in between a kitchen-sized bag and a dumpster where it is now impossible to dispose of trash in a reasonably convenient way, which means I and others in my position will likely simply circumvent the system.
Normally I roll my eyes at libertarians, but even this die hard social democrat/progressive needs to tell you, you have essentially chosen a common household product for us and shoved it down our throats by mandating its exclusive use.
Way to go, this is going to be one hell of a mess due to poor planning and even poorer implementation, with minimal thought given to the fact that for a simple such as this to suceed without huge backlash, it must be streamlined to be pretty damned convenient.
The single bags only available at the municipal center thing is asinine and will be a PITA for those who’s finances are so bad they can’t buy in the regular quantity. Cus folks working a job and a half with kids just have plenty of time to make an extra stop during errands to buy a single garbage bag.
I've recently had a few
I’ve recently had a few conversations with friends who live in other towns in Vermont and Massachusetts and their PAYT programs appear to have been implemented with a lot more thought and problem solving than Brattleboro. Several towns have discounted prices and lower prices per bag and single bags are available at most supermarkets and hardware stores. The one complaint across the board was that the bags were much more flimsy than,,say, a Hefty bag.if that’s true here it’s only going to make a program already making people unhappy even more difficult. I’m not sure what exactly was discussed at all the planning meetings but it obviously wasn’t how to assure a smooth transition to PAYT.
As a Marlboro resident, I've always PAYT
Any time I go to the dump, er waste management district, I must pay a minimum of $10 for each trip plus buy a yearly sticker for $20, or hire a private hauler. This will not change for me. I am glad people in Brattleboro are beginning to understand the calculations for bags vs. total cost of trash disposal, as this is a crucial piece of making sense of the finances. However, I am hearing other concerns, mostly related to taxes not going down despite trash costs being financed differently, and other problems (space, logistics) especially related to disability and other individual realities. I hope that some folks in Brattleboro will take note of these very real concerns and separate out the issues (perhaps not dissimilar to sorting trash?) and address each on its own. People on fixed incomes who also have hygiene and medically related waste that will not decrease have a very real problem to solve. Let’s encourage people to stop being defensive and try to rally to help find solutions to these difficult situations. There are a lot of good thinkers around here. I am convinced that everyone focuses on solutions, they will be found.
compostable issue
There is no need for the PAYT bags to be compostable. They will be the vehicle for carrying away all of the non-compostable refuse that residents produce. They will not be taken to a composting facility, they will be taken to a lined, capped and sealed landfill that does not support composting.
If you are committed to composting then get every compostable piece of trash that you produce into the curbside compost container for no-fee pickup. The list of items that can be composted is extensive.
I would hope that any small grocery or retail outlet would find a way to sell individual PAYT bags to their customers. I imagine once the program gets underway we will see the bag distribution system quickly improve in response to citizen demand.
This system certainly will favor those who have a storage shed where they can save up non-recyclable/non-compostable trash for the time it takes to fill a large bag. For people trying to get rid of a small amount of weekly garbage – particularly if it contains rotting compostable organic material – it will be more expensive.
Andy
My question about whether the
My question about whether the bags were compostible was just: a question. At one of th e meetings that question was raised and never really answered. Whether or not the bags are compostible seem to he the least problematic thing about this roll out. I do find it interesting that the issue of the cost for low income households is never actually addressed- no matter how many times the issue is raised. ( Andy, that last sentence is not addressed to you- just a part of my general concern.)
low income question
This has been part of the discussion over the many years I have been paying attention to this as a resident, taxpayer, and town meeting rep.
I believe it was the second year Rep Town Meeting discussed this at length that we passed PAYT with a broad and generous consensus that during the first year free bags would be available to anyone who requested them. This was a direct result of people’s concerns about the cost of the program for low and fixed income residents.
Following that vote a citizen referendum nixed the PAYT decision and the program was put on hold. Interestingly, one of the main arguments for passing the referendum was concern for the cost and the effect it would have on low income citizens.
Since that time curbside compost and weekly pickup of recyclables have made it easier than ever to reduce everyone’s trash volume. The success of these two programs has been used to justify not having subsidized or free bags. Also, the State of Vermont is now in the driver’s seat. I am not sure what the state law allows in the way of subsidized bags. Does anyone know?
PAYT is all about changing both our mindset and our behavior around solid waste. I suppose these discussions wouldn’t even be happening if we just stayed with the old system. Regardless of income level, we all need to rethink our production of trash and the actual cost of disposing it.
Andy
Mindsets, Behavior & Reality
I don’t think that anyone in this thread who is pointing out the problems for people with very low incomes & limited storage space is disagreeing with the need to change our thinking or behavior. What I see people saying is that even with the will to make changes, sometimes the realities–such as limited income or limited storage space–make participating in PAYT a bigger hit for some than for others, and a hardship in some cases.
Everyone in Brattleboro will have to change their behavior. For many it will be through compliance with PAYT. For others, for whom the cost of bags is prohibitive, it may take the form of illegal dumping in Dumpsters or woods or roadsides or even worse, burning of trash.
I myself have participated in the curbside composting since the pilot project. I am GLAD we have curbside composting and appreciate Moss’s work in making it happen. It does make it easier for lots of us, but not all of us. Unfortunately, just changing our mindsets doesn’t eradicate the other barriers that people have pointed out here.
As I have said before I am
As I have said before I am very much in favor of reducing the impact our trash has on the earth. I don’t have a problem with the PAYT program nor a problem with paying something to have my trash collected. I do have a continuous problem that no one in a position of decision making was willing to look at the issue of financial impact. I also don’t know what the state mandates in terms of reduced cost vs full cost. I do know that some towns have looked at that problem and have chosen to offer either a certain amount of free bags or a reduced price. As you pointed out,Andy, people in this town previously recognized the problem and decided to offer free bags to those who needed them. It says a lot about our town government that this option – or something that showed a little recognition of their more vulnerable populations- was never in the discussion this time around.
Does anyone with a rational mind think people should have to choose between buying trash bags or paying their electric bill?
Low income issues were discussed
The financial burden on low / fixed income was discussed at some length in the PAYT Committee meetings …. which were warned, public and minutes written and approved.
The idea of free bags was dropped as free bags would offer no incentive whatsoever for residents to change their habits in regard to their personal trash stream; and would skirt ACT 148 altogether.
The Committee was divided on whether to offer discounted bags through some kind of vetting system similar to what they do in Northampton, MA. There they offer a 50% discount to those residents who show that they receive some kind of public assistance. One Northampton administrator there told me that very few people there take advantage of the discount program.
A report pointing out the pros and cons of a discounted bag program was presented to the SB. They made the decision to require that all participants in the PAYT program would pay the full bag price.
Was is the right decision? Some people will say yes and some will so no……
What was the reasoning behind
What was the reasoning behind the decision to not offer a discount? I don’t see why it would matter how many people used the discount- if it was only 20 households that would still mean those families could pay a bill they might not be able to otherwise. I’m also not sure what the numbers in Northampton have to do with Brattleboro. Different town; different breakdown of income. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the people who thought that was a good decision do not live below the poverty level.
You would have to get into
You would have to get into the heads of each of the SB members to know, for sure, their thinking. You can go back to the minutes of that SB meeting. You can go back on ibrattleboro.com and look at Chris’s thorough notes of the meeting. You can look at BCTV’s digital recording of the meeting to watch the discussion “live”.
I suggest you contact Jan Anderson, Town Manager Secretary, at 254-4541 to try to pinpoint which SB meeting discount PAYT bags was discussed and see, watch, listen for yourself. Then write a letter to each of the SB members and tell them what you think.
I think it was worthwhile and educational to try to find other towns with PAYT and ask what they did, or did not do, for their low-income residents (along with a host of other questions!). In all, I spoke with administrators in at least twenty New England towns with PAYT. I noted Northampton, MA because it was the only town that I communicated with that offered discounted or free bags. That doesn’t mean that Brattleboro would have to follow their lead. If I had known of other towns that offered discounted bags I would have spoken with them, too. I asked every adminstrator if they knew of any such towns — Northhampton was the only one mentioned.
I have read all the detailed
I have read all the detailed ibrattleboro reports on the SB meetings where PAYT was discussed and attended as many as I could and at no time was any valid reason given for not considering a sliding scale cost for bags for low/ fixed income residents. The only “reason” was that if low income households were given free or discounted bags they would not have the “incentive” to recycle. Because who ever heard of a poor person who cared about keeping the earth a little cleaner or one who was a responsible, intelligent human being who believes in recycling and behaving in a conscientious and compassionate manner regarding the world we live in? Offering a slightly lower price would allow financially struggling residents to happily participate in PAYT without having to worry about whether they’ll be buying plastic bags rather than their heart medications. Hasn’t Wilmington – a small town still recovering from the devastation of Irene- managed to figure out a way to help their less financially secure residents? Obviously their town leaders were able to look beyond their own living situations and recognize that some people might need some help. Ludlow is another town finding a way to reduce the financial burden by giving it’s residents a certain number of free bags and then charging a reduced fee for any others people may need. All good, helpful, responsible ways to deal with what Brattleboro refuses to admit will be a problem.
And regarding your suggestion to contact the SB members and tell them how I feel- I emailed the SB and mailed a letter to them outlining the burden this would put on some residents and asking them to consider a structured cost and I never got a single reply. Is it any wonder that so many people have stopped attending their meetings or attempting to have their concerns heard? It’s like talking to a group of entitled, short sighted brick walls.
Great conversation going on
Great conversation going on about recycling. Fun fact, my aunt launched the concept of recycling centers and curbside recycling in the 70’s in New Jersey. There were other towns around the country doing the same thing, but she gets a lot of credit for getting statewide initiatives in place. I spent many weekends in my youth crushing cans and bottles and sorting metal, good times.
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/10/nyregion/as-the-landfills-fill-up-recycling-is-encouraged.html
Oh the Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth.
Ain’t centralized government great. Another state mandate that has reckless disregard for the common man. But I digress.
It does suck initially but you’ll get used to it. Huh, kinda like Socialism. I would suggest that anyone who burns wood pellets save your empty bags to use as kitchen bags and purchase the large PAYT bags. You can really stuff things into those pellet bags and that will protect the flimsy PAYT bags against tearing and poke throughs. You can get 4 full pellet bags into 1 PAYT bag. Trust me I’ve done it. I have a family of 4 and we only use 1 large bag a week. Many weeks I actually have room left and throw away things around the house I’ve been wanting to get rid of. And things that are non recyclable.
I can’t imagine the naivety of thinking that government was actually going to reduce it’s confiscation of your money because you instituted PAYT. That’s like expecting water and sewer rates to go down because less water is used.
state mandated
We did it in our town for the same reasons Bratt is doing it, save the state mandate. Of course, all these efforts/cost shifts differ from place to place. For instance, we use to pay for pickup, now we don’t. Bags are sold in bags of 5; 6.25$ for large, $3.75 for small. Single bags, there a couple stores that sell that that way, those who want them, they know where to go. We have no compost service, wish we did.
Prior to our PAYT 15 years ago, households that dumped 5 bags/week were taxed the same as those who dumped 1/2 bag. That didn’t seem fair. Towns that provide other municipal services like water or sewer face similar situations. In a town near me, sewer rates are not metered but rather charged a flat fee. So the person living in a one bedroom cold water flat plays the same rate as someone in a 5 bedroom house. At the same time, water is metered and one pays the corresponding useage rate. No discounts, no deals, no difference, except household vs commercial rates.
Tamara Steen wrote an interesting piece in the Reformer questioning the bags and suggested the use of a reuseable garbage can instead of bags. I thought that was great, but the cost of the bag pays for more than the bag, it covers the whole recycling solution.
Do your bags cost $6.25 for a
Do your bags cost $6.25 for a pack of 5 bags? If so, that’s a reasonable price.
5 packs of bags in Brattleboro are $ 15 – not a reasonable price.
Oh Sure
It’s all so easy! Shell out $100-$150 for garbage bags a year. Roughly $12-$14 a month. Which is all of Social Security’s annual COLA increase. Except my rent will increase because of the annual SS COLA increase. So further I go behind the 8 ball.
Compost is easy! Just buy a container, find somewhere to keep it in my 2 1/2 rooms and then buy the special composting bags for that bin, too. Then get up at 6:30 on Weds morning, attach it to my walker somehow and take it down the street to the designated site (I’m sure every Weds will be a miraculous day that I can walk that far while managing a compost bin attached to my walker with no problem at 6:30 in the morning, especially in the Winter). And then go down the street again, get the container and bring it back after the truck’s been thru, wash it out and put another bought bag in and repeat. No. Ain’t happening.
Look, I recycle more than 2 milk crates’ worth each week and have been for years now. If it weren’t for cat litter I could probably go 1 1/2 weeks on a single kitchen-sized bag of trash. I do and have done all I can. This additional cost is all it is to me- additional cost on a fixed income.
Still, I wonder how families with babies who use disposable diapers will be able to do this at all. Things are gonna get ripe in Brattleboro.
The cost is definitely a huge
The cost is definitely a huge issue for me but, like you, annikee, it’s the lack of space for one more container and having to make two more trips with a compost bin. Some days I can use a cane- some days I can’t walk the 6′ from my bedroom to the kitchen. I cook a lot so I would love to compost but it’s not possible. I have 3 containers of recyclables that go out each week plus my trash.In the winter it’s difficult and dangerous to navigate an unshoveled walkway to even put the trash out. I’m so disgusted with the total lack of regard that the “decision makers” have shown with their half assed planning for this program.
Consider the Source!!
Are you starting to get it now?!!! Finally, I’m hearing those that love centralized and big government wail about a decision made in Montpelier.
This has been going on for years and those of us that complained about ACT 60 and other laws of the like were labelled as uncompassionate and cheapskates. Well now everyone is getting hit with another state confisciatory mandate and others are finally starting to feel the pinch. I knew it was just a matter of time before the legislature dug deep enough and put the hurt on those that defended it so long.
It’s too late you’re not going to change anything until towns finally rise up to the Central Committee.
I'm not sure there's anything
I’m not sure there’s anything to ” get”. I’m not against the mandatory recycling or the purpose of the PAYT program. I’m against the irresponsible manner in which the Selectboard chose to implement the program. Montpellier gave the cities and towns of Vermont the freedom to structure the program in the way that worked best for their residents in terms of bags versus stickers, free versus full cost, sliding scale or not. Brattleboro chose to structure their program in the most callous and punitive way possible. The blame for that lies right here not in Montpelier.
get this
It’s the way it’s being done that’s the problem. I’d have thought you’d be all in favor of it, Mikey. After all, it’s not your taxes going up, it’s the lower economic class being punished. That’s a neocon agenda item! So congratulations!
Re: Annikee's comment to Mikey
“Like”
Big government?
Curious to hear the big, centralized government theme again. The old trash system of the town overpaying to remove whatever was put on the sidewalk and indiscriminately haul it off to a landfill wasting all the recyclable materials is closer to the inefficient socialist system I witnessed in the USSR back in the 1980s.
The Soviet system had zero ability to respond to environmental issues because Lenin had written nothing on that topic. Their whole system was based upon industrial growth at all costs. The environment be damned. We have had much the same attitude with our industrial model of growth where companies too big to fail ‘capture’ the regulators and get away with murder – so to speak.
The PAYT system as it is being rolled out in Vermont is not big government. Each town can do it as it sees fit… and change it on the local level to make improvements as it sees fit. The PAYT system is a user fee – a popular strategy with supporters of smaller government spending. Rather than have taxes pay for everything (big government) the PAYT system is designed to remove more of the cost of solid waste from government and place it on the folks actually producing the waste (smaller government). User fees have been promoted by enemies of big government.
I hear a small number of folks here on iBratt who are unhappy – before PAYT has even started. This reminds me of a story I once read about Sweden which is a democratic socialist country: A man went into the state offices to report that his neighbor couldn’t carry his groceries up to his apartment. The man asked if the state agency could send someone over to help his neighbor. The state worker looked at the man and said, “How about you?”
My point is this. Aren’t we resourceful enough to make this work with some Yankee ingenuity and neighborliness? If you really produce such a tiny amount of waste I think you can find a way to pay nearly nothing. Complaining is not a strategy. The process ain’t over. In fact,the roll out doesn’t even start for two weeks.
Where would the most convenient place be in town for people to pick up subsidized trash bags? Be specific.
Andy
Hypothetically - since we
Hypothetically – since we don’t have subsidized bags- it would need to be an easily accessible place- preferably on a bus route because many low income and elderly people don’t have cars. The Municipal Building comes to mind.
Well, that was insulting, thanks
What a nice story about the Russian. Of course it has nothing to do with this program or Brattleboro. When you live among the elderly, poor and disabled, depending on neighbors is a ridiculous notion. It’s the ignorance of what isn’t hunky-dory in people’s lives that makes this whole process so bad.
The municipal center and the Senior Center (Gibson-Aiken) would be good places that most people could get to easily.
Not about big or small government
For me the salient issue isn’t whether this is about big government or smaller government. Brattleboro apparently still considers trash collection to be a public good since the town is not doing away with municipal pick-up. So the question for me is whether we pay for public goods through progressive taxation or some more regressive form of taxation such as user fees. I come down on the side of progressive taxation because I think it’s the most equitable way of providing for public goods. In the absence of a true progressive tax, some of the suggestions here about graduating the rate for the bags would be a step the town could take.
public goods
I agree completely about the need to balance the cost of public goods with progressive taxation. When it comes to the cost of trash disposal I think a private/public partnership is quite appropriate because we need to amplify individual responsibility into the mix. With only one operating landfill left in the state of Vermont – practically on the Canadian border – we need to radically change the amount and the mix of our trash. I have no problem tweaking our local version of the state law to accommodate those in need.
American politics are incredibly conservative. Most of the industrialized world has adopted the ideas that housing, transportation, higher education and medical care are all public goods that need to be funded by progressive taxation. I would rather focus on changing the way we fund these bigger ticket items in our lives.
There are many precedents for user fees working in tandem with public funding: Our local recreation department charges people to use the swimming pool and the skating rink while also having access to public funds raised through taxation. I see PAYT in this category. And don’t forget, we the people of Brattleboro still have the right to adjust the local ordinances regarding trash. As far I’m concerned stores should be required to sell individual bags and reduced cost bags should be available at public offices such as the town office, the rec center, and the transportation center – for those truly in need.
Andy
User fees
It is absolutely true that there are many precedents for user fees being used in tandem with public funding. For me a salient issue is whether the user fee is for a necessity or not. Swimming and skating are great public services and I’m really glad that the Rec Commission maintains the pool, the skating rink, and the Rec Center with taxpayer money as well as user fees. They are not, however, necessities. The more necessary a service, the less happy I am with user fees as a form of taxation. So, although I am not a big fan of user fees, I am less concerned about their being used for things like rec services or parking than I am about using them for the necessities of life.
I totally agree about the other public goods you mention and would love to see the US join the rest of the industrialized world in those areas.
I’m also still wondering about who is included in PAYT locally and statewide. Large apt. buildings? Businesses? Industries? If the goal is to decrease what gets transported to the landfill it seems that we need to include the large producers of trash as well as the smaller households. Maybe that is being done but I have only heard about this applying to smaller households.
As far as I know - and there
As far as I know – and there could be ordinances that I am not aware of- PAYT does not apply to buildings that have 5 or more apartments; businesses, government office buildings and industries. Presumably because they have private waste companies haul away their trash. God knows what happens to it then. I’m curious if town and state buildings in Vermont are required by law to recycle.
It would be quite ironic if they weren’t.
Maybe people will start bringing their bags of trash to work with them to avoid having to pay a ridiculous price for trash bags?
Flimsy, awful bags
A bit of foreshadowing…
https://www.ibrattleboro.com/sections/town-news/brattleboro-pay-you-throw-advisory-committeeworking-group-meeting-agenda-2
Isn’t it great when the people making decisions for the town cite “Well the meeting was warned…” when the people most affected by their decisions are the least likely to have the free time or extra income to take the time to go to the all the various meetings…
So tell me again why I have to use these crappy, flimsy bags that are also too small (I’d have been fine paying proportionally more for a larger bag, at least 3 mil thick) for my needs rather than sticking a sticker or zip-tieing a tag onto bags of my own choosing? Stickers/tags are a whole lot easier to sell too. Just ask the post office.
The attitude from Moss about this speaks volumes about how it got this screwed up really…
PC has them
Just called Price Chopper to check, they have the smaller PAYT bags now.
A state mandate
I’m sorry to read so many of the angry or accusatory comments directed at Moss – PAYT is not his idea. As far as I can recall, he worked hard to implement better systems to avoid PAYT in Brattleboro. When PAYT became a state mandate, he was in a position to help implement it in Brattleboro.
PAYT is an unfunded state mandate, the result of legislation passed in 2012. If you want to complain to someone, start by asking your legislators if and why they supported the PAYT mandate which was part of Act 148.
PAYT, particularly the way your selectboard has implemented it, is one of the most regressive taxes to hit Brattleboro residents. It will hit residents with low incomes the hardest, and it will benefit businesses and owners of high-end properties the most.
I think the idea that PAYT has saved any tax dollars, or that tax bills would have been worse without PAYT, is ridiculous. The shift of solid waste cost to individuals simply opened a hole in the budget that the town filled with other expenses – expenses they may not have approved if it impacted the budget to the tune of, what was it? I seem to remember a $500k figure for PAYT.
So PAYT has not just shifted the burden onto the shoulders of residential taxpayers, it has added to the burden as well.
Perhaps Moss is getting the
Perhaps Moss is getting the brunt of the unhappiness around the way PAYT is being implemented in this town because he has made himself the “face” of this program. None of the SB can be bothered listening to how this program will hurt people financially because- let’s be honest- the Selectboard doesn’t give one bit about how this will place an unnecessary burden on the poor and elderly. It seems like from their comments at meetings they not only can afford to pay exorbitant prices for trash bags but they are all so incredibly clever they have somehow managed to get their trash amounts down to a bag every 6 weeks or something equally ridiculous. For many, many people their trash will remain the same amount; any household that has a child in diapers or a family member who uses incontinence products is not going to see any reductions in their trash no matter how much they compost or recycle. I imagine that the thoughtless way this change has been implemented is going to come right back and bite our smug Selectboard in the ass.
Question about large apt. buildings
Is it still true that large apt. buildings (greater than 5 units?) are not part of PAYT?