Howard Weiss-Tisman is reporting that Kate O’Connor has been selected by the Chamber board as the new Director of the Brattleboro Area Chamber of Commerce, replacing retiring Jerry Goldberg (who was recently named “Person of the Year.”)
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Wouldn't this be a potential
Wouldn’t this be a potential conflict of interest since Kate also serves on the Select board? Does the Selectboard ever have to make decisions- budgetary or otherwise – that would affect the Chamber of Commerce? Something about this seems a little off.
Yes It Is
Yes, it’s a conflict of interest.
The job description itself written by Jerry Goldberg states
“Government/Civic Affairs
• Keep informed about legislative issues at all levels of government that could impact the Brattleboro-area business community.
• Represent the Chamber with membership, external contacts, and public/government agencies at both the local and state level.
• Assist in keeping open communications with locally elected officials.
• Represent the Chamber at appropriate public meetings and in advocacy of for the economic well being of Chamber membership and the community.”
I really don’t see how Kate can both sit on the Selectboard, Chair or otherwise, and be an “advocate for the economic well being of the Chamber membership” without it being a conflict of interest. Certainly “Assist in keeping open communications with locally elected officials” itself indicates that one shouldn’t be both on the select board and lead the Chamber.
I’m surprised she was even considered for the position. Who was on the committee to select? There should certainly be a public discussion about this issue. It’s not a small thing.
And just as a matter of personal curiosity, what is the salary for this job?
Thanks, Rosa, for looking up
Thanks, Rosa, for looking up that info. This situation makes me really uncomfortable – I don’t think it’s right that an elected town official also be working for various other community organizations. If Kate has to recuse herself anytime a matter regarding BABB or the Chamber comes up -how effective can she be as a member of the selectboard? I feel that one of the major problems small towns face is that too often a very small chosen group makes all the decisions.It feels very inappropriate and I’m surprised that her name was considered for the directors position given her other affiliations.
It’s one thing for elected officials to be members of local community groups and something very different when you are being paid by one of those groups.
Giving too much authority to any one person is never a good thing.
My sediments exactly...it's
My sediments exactly…it’s just feels a little dirty somehow.
Easy to avoid
The Selectboard rarely deals with Chamber issues, but if they do, Kate would likely recuse herself as she did last night when the discussion came around to BaBB.
Vermont recognizes that the population is limited and people often have to wear multiple hats. They just need to clearly state their alliances and be certain to stay out of decisions involving said organization.
The Chamber is bigger than Brattleboro, too… it’s for the region. It’s also going to be facing difficulty retaining members, as health care benefits shift.
The decision would have been made by the Chamber’s board. Not sure of the salary.
Thanks. Interesting. Most
Thanks. Interesting. Most places this would be way too close for comfort and one of the two positions would have to be given up. I’m not real comfortable with one of the SB members recusing themselves as the board itself isn’t that big.
Also it would hard for anyone even with the best of intentions not to be subconsciously affected by dealings that would matter to your paid position. Just hard to image how this will work.
The salary issue is interesting. Their web site says that expenses are “largely” paid for by members dues. What other sources are there is “largely” is the case? Does this organization get any support from the town or state? And yes, I’ve heard Jerry Goldberg speak to the concerns about membership with the advantage of health care through membership disappearing.
Conflict of Interest
From Article II, Section 9 of the Brattleboro Town Charter:
—
Conflict of Interest.
No member of any town or town school district board, commission or committee shall vote on any matter where there is a direct or indirect financial or personal interest. It is expected that any member of any town or town school district board, commission, or committee with a conflict of interest will fully disclose the nature of his or her conflict and will recuse himself or herself from a vote on the issue at hand. The member with a conflict of interest may participate in the discussion of the issue at hand with the consent of the majority of the remaining board, commission, or committee members. Any interested person may publicly request that a member recuse himself or herself due to a conflict of interest.
—
If this doesn’t satisfy you, the Town Charter allows for the recall of local elected officials. The procedure is outlined in Article III, Section 5:
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Recall.
A. The voters of the town may recall any of the elected town or town school district officers listed in Article II, Section 1, of this charter, with the exception of town meeting members.
B. A recall petition, signed by at least twenty-five (25) percent of the legal voters of the town, and bearing their addresses, shall be filed with the town clerk within fifteen (15) calendar days of its issue. The town clerk upon receipt of a valid petition shall, between forty-five (45) and sixty (60) calendar days, hold a special election with voting by Australian ballot to consider the recall of an elected town officer.
C. When such a petition is approved by a majority of the ballots cast at such special election, the town officer named in the petition shall thereupon cease to hold the office.
D. A vacancy resulting from the recall of an officer shall be filled in the manner prescribed by law.
E. A recall petition shall not be brought against an individual more than once within twelve (12) months.
—
Having known Ms. O’Connor for several years, I am confident that if any conflict were to arise that she would recuse herself from a vote on that issue.
Conflict?
If, a couple of years ago, Jerry had decided to run for the selectboard, I would have thought it inappropriate. The Chamber represents the business interests, and does a good job. However, there’s more to the town than just the business community.
Much of the town’s business involves the business community, directly or indirectly.
Kate might have to leave the room for parts of nearly every meeting.
For example: If a member of the Chamber (or even a potential member) applies for a liquor license, would that constitute a conflict?
Obviously, it’s not about the money.
For the peace of mind of the town, I feel Kate should step down from the Board and accept our gratitude for her service.
No Conflict
There is no real conflict of interest here. The Chamber of Commerce’s mission is somewhat limited by its status as a membership organization … you have to pay dues to join. That means that businesses and organizations that are not members are not helped or represented by the Chamber.
However, Kate will be necessarily a servant of businesses that *ARE* members of the Chamber. So if one of those businesses is party to an action coming before the Selectboard, she will have to examine her conscience to understand whether or not to recuse herself. The ‘danger’, such as it is, is that businesses may join the Chamber (pay dues) for the purpose of having their interests represented through Kate on the Selectboard.
All this having been said, the realpolitik of conflicts of interest is that if enough people see them as such, the *appearance* of a conflict is enough to make it real politically. And that is a fact that we will all have to live with or adjust to.
But is any objective observer or authority going to find a *real* conflict of interest here? I don’t think so.
Finally, there is the ‘reasonable accommodation’ principle in law, which has been mentioned in a previous post. In a small town, it is inevitable that we will run up against the fact that the most active and influential people turn up in different circles at different times, able and willing to take responsibility. We ought to laud Kate for doing this, and make what’s called a ‘reasonable accommodation’ to her needs and the Town’s.
"....able and willing to take
“….able and willing to take responsibility. We ought to laud Kate for doing this,”
Is this a volunteer position? I thought it was a paid job that others applied for also.
Why Do You Ask?
Pretty sure it’s a paid position, but I don’t understand if you are trying to make a point here or not.
Life isn’t just people clocking time for the almighty dollar, you know. Some people seek certain types of jobs because it’s their calling to serve others and/or their community. Kate is one of those people. That’s why, in my humble opinion, she should be recognized … the people who follow their callings into public service are a small minority of the total population.
Oh perhaps I misunderstood. I
Oh perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you saying we should be lauding and complimenting her for taking the job. I would think congratulations would be more appropriate. But your post again points out why this is a conflict of interest. If she’s being paid a pretty nice sum of money to work for these dues paying members it really isn’t seemly that she sits on the Selectboard. It’s pretty much the definition of conflict of interest. And yes, she could recuse herself, but as you put it, I assume that would be at her discretion only. This just isn’t a good idea.
And sure, as someone who’s volunteered a lot, I understand that sometimes it seems it’s the same small group of people. However, in this case, I believe she did not run for the Selectboard without opponents, that it was a contested seat.
And since the race was contested it isn’t exactly like she just stepped up to fill some sort of void out of the goodness of her heart.
I think you’re a little naive about the difference between public service as a volunteer and public service as a paid position. Ms. O’Connor worked for Howard Dean, she worked for Rich Tarrant and now she will work for the Chamber of Commerce. No problem, we all need jobs. But that means that the major part of her public service positions have been paid not voluntary. It’s a choice of vocation, a calling would be to take unpaid positions as a volunteer. Perhaps taking the Selectboard position was a “calling” but now that she’s taken a paid position where her decisions could affect local member businesses so dramatically re contracts and town projects voted for or against, I think this is a conflict of interest and she should not recuse herself from votes but from the position on the selectboard.
I understand that a small community will often find it difficult to fill certain spots but it isn’t healthy for a town of this size to have one very small group, as in family, holding so many positions in town governance. If she wants the SB position fine, but if she wants the job she should step down. I’m sure somewhere in this vibrant wonderful fairly large community there would be people willing to fill the gap her leaving would create. Or is this just a little one-horse town?
And one last point. Your
And one last point. Your comment that it is possible that more local businesses will now want to join the Chamber since Kate sits on the Selectboard and will run the Chamber points to exactly why this is a conflict of interest. Obviously you think that local businesses might feel that Chamber membership will be a benefit because of her position as chair whether she recuses herself or not. You’ve actually pointed out exactly why it is not a good idea for her to hold both positions.
Nope
Don’t put words in my mouth. I pointed out why and when Kate might find the occasion to recuse herself. I don’t for a moment think that she would fail to step aside when there was a conflict of interest, nor when there was even the smallest hint of such.
What exactly did I say that
What exactly did I say that concerns you.?All I did was repeat your comment that she could “choose” to recuse herself which would mean as I put it “at her own discretion.” Nowhere did I state that you said, or for that matter that I even think, she might fail to step aside at necessary times. But it would be at her discretion and while I’m sure she’s conscientious this could be problematic at certain times. As pointed out actually by S-K’s post when he gives a very good example of why recusing oneself at one’s discretion can be quite problematic.
You seem to feel it necessary to defend her when such defense is not the point. I think this question could and should be raised for any Selectboard person who might have taken the job. It’s not about the person, it’s about whether a Selectboard member can hold certain other jobs which might infringe or give the appearance of imfringing upon their objectivity.
It is my understanding that
It is my understanding that the Chamber directors job is a paid position. So, I’m not sure Kate is due any praise for the act of applying and interviewing for an advertised job. My original concerns still stand. At some point her position on the Select Board will be in conflict with her job as Chamber director as her involvement with BABB has required her to recuse herself from SB dealings with that organization. This is a small town, yes and there are only so many people who are willing or able to perform in volunteer community positions. But there are certainly more people willing to do that than just one woman. Small town politics can become incestuous very quickly and one very small group of people – no matter how well meaning – holding all the power is always a bad thing.
And, in your original comment, John, you stated that Kate should be allowed a “reasonable accomodation” to allow her to be on the SB while she is a paid employee of another organization.
Elected officials work for the residents of the area they represent. It’s part of their job to look at all sides of any issue without prejudice and make determinations based on what is good and right for the people they represent. I don’t think we owe any official a ‘reasonable accomodation’ to act in a capacity that may not be in the best interest of the people.
Kate taking the paid directors position while serving on the Select board may not be a legal conflict of interest. But it certainly is an ethical conflict of interest and should be appropriately addressed by the town.
The fact that the Selectboard apparently sees no issue with this and,as of yet, has not addressed the matter is a good example of too few people making all the decisions.
The matter should be addressed
I agree with KAlden that the question of conflict of interest should be addressed by the Brattleboro Selectboard.
In vermont towns, it is almost impossible to avoid conflicts of interest in municipal governments, because many decisions made by public bodies will affect everyone in the town, including the members of the public body making the decision. It is always a matter of degree, and a judgment call as to which conflicts of interest reach the threshold at which they should be mentioned, and which reach the point where a member of the public body should recluse herself or himself.
At a meeting of a past Selectboard which was discussing a plan in which downtown merchants would have a direct interest, I asked the chairman if he would address his own conflict, since he is involved in the ownership of a downtown business. He responded that he would not discuss it because he had no conflict of interest as the business is owned by his wife, not by him. Raised eyebrows all around.
It may very well be that there is nothing wrong with a Selectboard member taking the job that Ms. O’Connor is taking. Nonetheless, since the Chamber (of which I am a member) can at times come before the Selectboard to advocate for policies or decisions, and since one of the jobs of the director is to represent Chamber interests: There is no doubt in my mind that it would be cleaner for the Board to discuss this matter rather than let the new Chamber director become a pachyderm at the dais.
Common Sense Will Prevail
I would hazard a guess that Kate herself will eventually address this issue one way or another. Even if she never says a thing about it, that, in a way, would be addressing it.
In my experience, there is a spirit and policy of openness and candor that is usually present in Town boards and committees. I think that even though we do not have the same laws or policies in place about this as, say, Massachusetts, every one of our Town board or committee members is more or less sensitive to the issue of conflicts of interest. Nonetheless, where there are stronger laws that affect such situations (I urge you to take a look at Massachusetts’ laws for example), they tend to treat the most direct and egregious conflicts of interest (ones where the official might have a direct pecuniary benefit at stake in the decision they are making), and the less direct ones are sort of left in the ‘gray area’ of personal discretion and conscience.
Kate recused herself and even left the room the other night when the Selectboard debated releasing BaBB and/or Strolling of the Heifers from a lien obligation on the River Garden. Kate had no pecuniary interest in the decision; she is merely a volunteer BaBB board member. Yet she is, and was, sensitive enough to do her best to avoid even the *appearance* of a conflict of interest.
I personally would like to urge Kate publicly to stay on the Selectboard. I voted for her, I endorsed her in the strongest terms, and I continue to believe that the good she is doing for our town now, plus the extraordinary accomplishments I believe she has yet to achieve in this capacity, mitigate for her remaining and continuing to discharge what I feel is the strong public service mandate she received from the voters.
And I know Kate believes in herself well enough and deeply enough to realize that I am right. Politically, she is very astute, and she is also mature enough to know her worth to the community. I think this is a minor controversy, and she will weather it just fine.
Really?
” Even if she never says a thing about it, that, in a way, would be addressing it.” Really? You honestly think that if Kate doesn’t address this issue it’s the same as her addressing it? In what universe would that ever make sense? I feel that first,this is a Selectboard issue to address. Then an issue for Ms.O’Connor to address. I don’t believe the issue here is whether she “will weather it just fine”.
She’s a public official and she willingly put herself into this situation. I believe the issue is whether or not this situation will potentially cause harm to the governing of this town. This may seem like a “minor controversy” to you and possibly to others. But several Brattleboro citizens have now, publicly expressed concern and I imagine there might be others who feel that way but -for a variety of reasons – don’t feel comfortable stating their concern publicly. But, even if there are only a handful of people who feel this situation has the potential to be a conflict of interest that should be enough public concern for the SB – and Kate- to address this.
Potential
If, a couple of years ago, Jerry had decided to run for the selectboard, I would have thought it inappropriate. The Chamber represents the business interests, and does a good job. However, there’s more to the town than just the business community.
Much of the town’s business involves the business community, directly or indirectly.
Kate might have to leave the room for parts of nearly every meeting.
For example: If a member of the Chamber (or even a potential member) applies for a liquor license, would that constitute a conflict?
Obviously, it’s not about the money.
For the peace of mind of the town, I feel Kate should step down from the Board and accept our gratitude for her service.
Exactly. One of the points
Exactly. One of the points that I brought up in an earlier post (as did others) is that even if Kate recuses herself and/or leaves the room when issues involving the Chamber directly or members of the chamber arise -she is still the head of the Select board and as such yields a certain amount of power over decisions made. And how many times can a SB member recuse themselves before they cease to be able to be a productive part of the Selectboard?
A few observations and an opinion on the Chambah (err, chamber)
Observations:
1. I never saw the position advertised, and I was looking. Martha O’Connor has been a former board member of the chamber. Kate’s selection appears predetermined, which is how things work if a board feels a decision is in the best interest of the organization.
2. People asked about salary. From my understanding the position pays $50k+ but less than $60k not including benefits. This is typical for a small chamber. Some might see it as high for a small not-for-profit (there’s only one other full-time staff member).
3. Obamacare will devastate small chamber memberships and budgets. Years ago the same thing happened with phone service (a past chamber benefit from over a decade ago). I think Jerry picked a smart time to leave. I wish Kate good luck.
My opinion about the conflict of interest:
The chamber director is a relatively high-profile position in this community. The person is (paid to be) the chief promoter of the Brattleboro area. It’s a hat Jerry wore all the time, whether he was at the grocery store or at one of the countless community meetings he attended. This is part of what made him great at the job.
The director position is an exempt position (i.e., salaried) in part because it is not a 40-hour-a-week job. It’s constant. Being the chamber director is public (as in public relations) and, at times, political (as in, lobbying).
A position on the selectboard is a similar high-profile position in this community. These people are (paid a tiny amount to be) our elected representatives for the day-to-day operation of our town. It’s a metaphorial hat people like Dick Degray, Greg Worden, Christopher Chapman, Dora Boubolis, Audrey Garfield, and many others wore all the time, whether at the grocery store or at one one of the countless community meetings they attended. This is part of what made them great at the job.
I don’t see how someone can realistically wear both of these hats. It doesn’t matter how smart, skilled, talented, personable, agreeable, etc. a person is, or whether the rules allow someone to hold both jobs. My opinion is that trying to do both jobs will be confusing for constituents. Confusion will never be good. Confusion could ultimately taint both roles.
There are people who ran for the selectboard who, in some cases, were narrowly defeated. These people were willing to devote the time and energy needed to manage the town. So the selectboard role isn’t something that Kate is doing that no one else wants to do (which is the whole reason why some small towns need to let people hold more than one role).
Kate’s now taken on a big, challenging job and the chamber members deserve her full attention (they should be sounding off). The voters deserve a selectboard member’s full attention. And when someone bumps into Kate at the store or at a community meeting the person deserves to know what hat Kate’s wearing.
So I think Kate needs to choose one or the other.
But that’s just my opinion…
Reformer article
There is an article on the Reformer’s FB page with a statement from Kate O’Connor saying that her job as Chamber director does not pose any conflict of interest. This sentiment is echoed by David Gartenstein (sp). No surprise here and also no acknowledgement that there might possibly be justifiable reason for people to question her positions on both organizations. A few new faces but the Selectboard is still the same old/same old.
Disappointed, but...
Why am I not surprised?
I certainly was not
I certainly was not surprised. She stressed the fact that she wouldn’t be ‘profiting” from holding both positions which was never an issue for me. It’s whether this is a good situation for the town and it’s residents. I feel like the SB -past and present- have finely honed the art of not ever actually addressing issues that may not be to their liking. Usually without ever hearing any public input.
q
q
Missing from the Reformer article
The article seemed odd to me because it gave no context for why the question of a potential conflict was being addressed.
Of course we know that this question has been discussed on iBrattleboro, but the Reformer article did not cite anyone who had raised the conflict of interest issue or any place where this issue had been raised, so that it came across as though a refutation were being offered in the absence of any charge.
http://www.reformer.com/localnews/ci_24510385/o-rsquo-connor-sees-no-conflict-between-jobs
It was definitely an odd
It was definitely an odd article. One would think that Kate -or the reporter -would have first mentioned that some questions had arisen in the community about the potential conflict of interest in this situation. Instead it seems as though she just decided -on her own – to reassure people that there was no conflict of interest. It seems like a bizarre response to justifiable concerns that she obviously knew were being discussed. Very ineffective and, to my mind, a little deceptive. But, again, certainly no surprise in the way it was handled.
Creating a stir, where there is none
I find this to be a hateful and petty community, very different than the way it used be.
Let it go, man. Let it go.
What,exactly, is 'hateful and
What,exactly, is ‘hateful and petty’ about wanting to know if an elected official is doing their job in a way that is beneficial to their constituents?
This thread started as a question: Is there a conflict of interest with a Select board member holding a paid position at an organization whose members may come before the select board in the future? It obviously was something that other people were thinking about -hence the number of posts in this thread. Some people think there’s something not quite right about it – others think it’s perfectly fine. We are all entitled to our opinions. As citizens we have the right – the obligation- to question our elected officials if we are unhappy or unsure with decisions they have made. It doesn’t matter if it’s the President; a Senator or a Select board member in a small Vermont town. People “create a stir” when they feel something is wrong. Sometimes those people get answers -more often than not they don’t. But they still have the right to ask the questions. That’s what this is – asking the questions.
Interest in Conflict
“Is there a conflict of interest with a Select board member holding a paid position at an organization whose members may come before the select board in the future?” Really???? is that question worth a discussion?
Ah, that's right. I forgot
Ah, that’s right. I forgot that -to some people- if you haven’t lived in Vermont for centuries than you have no right to ask a question or expect an answer. What was I thinking?
And, to answer your question. Yes. That is a question worth a discussion as proven by the discussion that has gone on in these posts.
Pointless
OK Hateful is not right. But raising an inane question after someone has accepted a job has a sense of antagonism to it. Obviously, the potential for conflict of interest MAY arise in the course of routine business, just like it might for Mr. Allen, Mr. Schoales, Mr. Gardenstien, Ms. Macomber.
What can be gained by asking a rhetorical question, after the fact, other than undermining someone?
On the face of it, it looks like Ms. Oconnor accepted a job and a bunch of Brattleboro cranks and whiners are trying to beat her down, take that away from her.
Please give me relevant example of how a Chamber issue before Selectboard, in which Ms. O’connor has to sit out, will be a major problem.
Relevant example
Just suppose that a group wants to open up a skatepark. A location is chosen. Some neighbors object, and one or more of those neighbors happens to be an important member of the chamber.
hmmm?
Are you suggesting David Gartenstein has a conflict of interest in the skatepark?
Insufficient information
I don’t know enough about Gartenstein’s affairs. If there is a conflict, he, too needs to recuse.
Misread
Sorry, I misread your post.
He’s a neighbor of Crowell Lot. No idea about Chamber Membership.
Pretty good example though.
Inane
It’s hardly inane to ask a question about a conflict of interest between a town government position and a paid position that appears to have some overlap. We’ve seen the job description posted above; is it inane to ask how Kate will represent the chamber in chamber matters that involve town government? What happens if the chamber and the selectboard need to discuss a matter? Chambers of commerce and towns often collaborate on grants, economic development initiatives, community programs – how will that be affected? Will she have an unfair advantage in dealing with town employees on chamber business when she is, essentially, one of their bosses? When she participates in a community meeting as the chamber director, is she also participating as a selectboard member? If the chamber takes a stand on a local issue before the selectboard – say commercial zoning – will that mean Kate won’t be able to vote on it? Asking a question isn’t always an accusation.
Since it appears there’s no statutory conflict, maybe the best course of action is to see how it works or doesn’t work. If people see cronyism, I hope they’ll pipe up.
Common Sense
“maybe the best course of action is to see how it works or doesn’t work. ”
…finally, a some refreshing, reasonable, common sense.
Reasonable
Perhaps, but this does seem a little bit like a legislator taking a job as a lobbyist while still in office. Surely you can see why it might make people a bit uncomfortable?