Hey folks,
So the elected district 1 reps were kind enough make me to be a town meeting rep, despite arriving at the last moment.
I came into the meeting tonight supportive of moving the police department to the reformer building though extremely concerned about the financial considerations. During the course of the meeting I rediscovered that I am rather nervous public speaker but more importantly I now have doubts such that I am unsure of how to cast my vote at the next meeting.
So, since I’m a newcomer to town politics and I figure I’m supposed to represent other people and not just myself, I’d like to ask for input on how to cast my vote.
Where I currently stand on whether to move the PD to the reformer building on black mountain road is this:
– I think the reformer building will be a significantly superior space to house the PD in terms of layout of the building, parking and etc. I place great weight in the fact that the PD itself prefers this option.
– I have concerns about accessibility of the Black Mountain Road location to residents who may be the most in need of services but least able to secure transportation. A very small, potentially unrepresentative survey showed that 40% of residents who utilize the PD on a given day arrived by walking or biking. The extra 2 miles on a pedestrian and bike unfriendly road concern me. The police Cheif made strong arguments that they intend to mitigate as much as they can, but I did hear some statements that felt a bit like brushing off and there was clearly pushback from other attendees.
– I am not at this time particularly persuaded by the “Center of Gravity” argument to keep the department downtown and I am not at all concerned about response times or extra travel times, which I felt were a bit overstated and quite adequately addressed.
– I got mixed messages from town staff where they seemed to be referring to the reformer building as “cheaper” but in the literature and in the details it is actually a wash in terms of the projected costs to taxpayers as the costs of maintaining and operating another building cancel out the savings from a cheaper renovation. My current understanding is that the reformer building will *at best* be the same price as keeping the PD in the municipal center and will likely end up being more expensive in the long run due to the costs of owning and maintaining another building. The municipal center also needs a fair bit of work anyway and those costs are not included in the current proposal (For example, mold remediation in the basement @ a cost of $50-$75k). I think the town is understating the downside risk of owning and maintaining another building *and* a severely deficient municipal center building.
– It seems like we are overpaying for the reformer building, at $750,000, but I don’t have much information to make a reliable determination there.
– I have tremendous reservations about the town becoming a landlord in not one but two buildings in a commercial rental market that has excess capacity at this time. I was very put off by arguments that the town wouldn’t be competing with the private market since they’d be renting to very low-budget tenants. That absolutely is competition and it is taxpayer subsidized competition at that. Given the trend of the newspaper industry and recent layoffs at the reformer, I don’t see them being a tenant for the next 20 years. Quite simply, this is a road I wouldn’t want to see the town head down.
– I am persuaded by the town manager’s argument that interest rates are at historic lows, and will be rising and thus this is a financially advantageous time to act. I feel regret that the 2013 version of this project appears to have been handled ass-backwards and ran out the clock in a way and now it feels like we have to scramble. Scrambling rarely produces the best results. My personal nature is to be extremely slow and prudent and thresh out every conceivable alternative, but I note tremendous frustration from folks who have been at this a long-time that this process has dragged out long enough. My knee-jerk reaction is that if the 2013 plan was handled more competently, this might be a non-issue, but it wasn’t, so here we are.
So we have in favor of moving to Black Mountain Road:
– A significantly superior space in terms of utility, layout, etc.
– The preference of the Police Department
Against:
– Possible accessibility concerns, which could be mitigated
– Likely increased long-term cost to taxpayers
– Brattleboro becomes a landlord in 0 to 2 locations. If we choose not to get into the landlord mess, (which we really, really shouldn’t do IMO) then costs go up that much more.
Which to me feels like a tie. A significantly better space for more money and lots more risk.
Tell me what you think!
a few thoughts
This is an excellent summary of where things stand. I’d hope that every rep has put this much thought and questioning into the upcoming vote. Thanks for asking!
One thing to keep in mind is that you represent D1, so of key importance is what the people in your district would like to see be done. (One missing aspect to our RTM system is that reps rarely meet with those they represent, and rarely ask them for advice. Everyone guesses, which is about the same as voting one’s own mind.)
Another thing for reps to keep in mind is that voting no doesn’t end the world, it just sends people back to look for a better option for one of the three projects. The fire stations can proceed in either case.
I’m in district 3 so you can ignore me : ) but I’m leaning toward keeping everything downtown and putting the money into the Municipal Center – it needs work and the police need a better facility, so combine the efforts and do them both there. In terms of spending many dollars, I’d like them to go toward keeping the municipal center going for another 100 years. It’s a more interesting, historic building. But I’m just a voter so I don’t get a say in this project. : )
The idea of the town being the landlord for the daily paper strikes me as potentially problematic. Nothing nefarious, but I do think one’s writing changes if one is writing about their boss or landlord.
It’s a tough choice. There will be lots of peer pressure to “just get this over with” and “we’ve put this off long enough”. There is a zen saying that applies – “Each time it is presented, each time it is new.” This is the first time anyone will vote on moving the station out of downtown. This is the first request, not a 20 year delay.
We can know what everyone thinks
by holding surveys. People who usually don’t like to make comments in public or may be shy about doing so, would most likely quite willingly fill out a survey in the comfort of their own home. Surveys would allow everyone to chime in about public issues that affect THEM whereas usually it’s the same old voices that end up deciding the factors.
The Town could develop a system for conducting surveys and employ surveys for every issue imaginable. This really aids our democracy. It doesn’t cost much to hold surveys if you go through one of the surveying apps found online (such as SurveyMonkey)
We live in the digital age, we should be adapting and upgrading our thinking and processes – these are tools we could be using. One person cannot possibly represent everyone. It usually happens that only the few are represented and the poor are not, even with the best intentions, because the poor often don’t involve themselves in political systems which are steeped in procedure and processes they don’t understand. However, each person can represent themselves now, and officials can see very clearly the desires of their constituents and get a final tally of responses for or against. It’s funny that no “representative” has thought of this yet!
Poor does not equal stupid
” because the poor often don’t involve themselves in political systems which are steeped in procedure and processes they don’t understand.”
Many, many “poor” people involve themselves in politics because,more often than not-they are the groups that will be the most affected by budget cuts or higher taxes. Your above statement leads me to think that you believe poor people aren’t capable of understanding the process of politics. What do you base that very bigoted and ignorant view on. exactly? Being of a lower income does not- in anyway- mean a person isn’t intelligent,articulate, well educated.
And, as to your “solution” – surveys only are useful if people actually answer them. Usually it’s about 10 – 15% of people in any group who take the time to answer and return a survey. And, then, of course, you’d also have to contend with all the “poor” people who may not even know what a survey is.
Try educating yourself on who falls into the “poor” category before you make insulting comments that bring your own intelligence into question.
You really went off on that assumption...
but that was not my meaning at all. I actually think anyone who doesn’t have their minds sullied by the absurdity of politics is smart. Yes there are many poor people who engage in the political system but there are also many who recognize they will get nowhere in it, that their voices are worth zip.
And following that assumption which you didn’t check out, you go on to attack my main point – which is we’re doing things the hard way when we have technological tools at our disposal which we are not making use of.
You’re saying that “poor” people would have less chance of knowing what a survey is (who’s insulting their intelligence now?) than knowing how to navigate the myriad of procedures and processes that allow their voice to be heard in our (convoluted) political system? Alrighty then…
Obviously, you don't
Obviously, you don’t recognize sarcasm when you read it. My comment about the poor not knowing what a survey is was referring to your statement that the poor can’t understand process or policy. There are many people in Brattleboro and across the nation who no longer believe that their voices are being heard and so, perhaps make the decisions to no longer participate in the governing process. Some of them are low income; some are not. Their decision isn’t based on lack of understanding or low intelligence. Your comment was quite clear that you felt poor people do not participate in local politics and that if they did they would not be able to understand. You obviously know nothing about people who live on lower incomes other than the stereotype of poor equals stupid.
I can assure you from first hand experience that it does not.
You should stop talking about what you know nothing about and stick to the topics you are well educated in…..like the hundreds of conspiracy theories you believe are true.
conspiracy theories
Please tell me you still believe that Oswald killed Kennedy and that Bin Laden did 9-11.
No Thank You!
I have absolutely no interest in getting involved in any discussion/debate/argument/conversation about any conspiracies. My comments to DWARD were about an ignorant remark she made about poor people- that’s it.
Poor people are a conspiracy theory?
….like the hundreds of conspiracy theories you believe are true.
You know, it's ridiculous
You know, it’s ridiculous comments like this one that make me want to stay away from ibrattleboro. Obviously, you didn’t bother to read the entire thread of comments or you would know that is not what I said or what I think. Don’t attempt to put words in my mouth – or in my writing. I’m quite capable of making my thoughts known without any help.
Not my quote
That quote came from your post
Sorry- not true.
There is no quote in my post that says Poor people are a conspiracy. You either need to learn how to read a little more comprehensively or get some good eye glasses. I mentioned the term “conspiracies” in reference to DWard’s frequent statements about various conspiracies. My response to her was in regard to her saying that poor people did not participate in politics or if they did they didn’t understand the process. Again- don’t assign stupid comments to me that I have not said or written. You clearly are not quite as clever as you seem to think you are. I think that’s been proven time and time again.
Thank you
I was appointed with you last night, and I so appreciate this question. I will be following this thread, and I hope people will weigh in, as I like you, feel it is our duty to represent the voters. I do not question the need for new space, nor am I concerned about response time or keeping a downtown location. I really just want to hear what voters from District 1 think about the project.
Addendum
I just got some e-mails that pointed out that not everyone who reads Ibrattleboro has made an account to post here, so anyone wishing to contact me can do so at *deleted*
I should also add that I would feel somewhat hypocritical voting for a more expensive option as I think the Brattleboro tax rates are out of control, but bang for the buck is a strong consideration.
It is currently my intention to vote down any budget that represents an increase in the tax rate or a significant cost-shift without a corresponding decrease in the tax rate (like PAYT, retrospectively). I intend to look carefully at long-term impacts and thus am not persuaded by using short-term surplus funds to artificially reduce tax rate increases to make large purchases more palatable. While perhaps well-intentioned, theres a bit of salesmanship going on there that I dislike.
When I heard the following words from the selectboard: “We didn’t have the stomach to make cuts” I was quite irritated as their lack of stomach to make the hard decisions is merely an admission that they are forcing those gut-wrenching financial decisions onto those residents who in all likelihood are already tapped out.
I heard arguments last year of “This increase only represents a cup of coffee once a week!” and while true, thats not much consolation to those who stopped being able to afford retail coffee at all years ago.
I personally can afford a higher tax rate. I feel my vote belongs to those who can’t.
My current position (though I’m a newcomer so if you think I’m wrong please attempt to persuade me!) is that there is no more money, there is no more revenue. The town must figure out a way to live within its means. The tax rate is already too high. All of the fuss over the local option tax and all the hand-wringing over the difficulty in finding more revenue needs to take a back seat to the idea that the average resident has been flipped upside down and shaken quite enough already from nearly every direction.
The town has been going at the budget ass-backwards and I would advocate that they look at the budget as “Alright, heres how much money we have, what can we afford?” rather than “Here’s what we want, how much should we raise taxes to pay for it?”
I would advocate for the fire and police, who are the ones risking life and limb for our lives and limbs, to be given priority (with public works a close 3rd). So if the determination is that we need to fix the police/fire facilities (and I am persuaded that we do) then something else, somewhere else in the budget has to give. Because thats what the town government has been forcing residents to do every time they raise taxes.
Therefore by supporting the police and fire project (Which in the general sense I do,) I am expecting the town to find the money to move forward within the existing budget, rather than raising taxes to pay for it. That means cuts.
Think I should vote differently? Please let me know!
Placement of the Police Presence
I’ve served on the Town Finance Committee for five years. Bear in mind first of all that buying the Reformer building will take it off the tax rolls, so taxpayers will pay more to run the Town. It’s also bad practice to mix for-profit and public sector activities … sort of like if the Town were to buy a shopping center with a supermarket in it. It’s just sorta ‘not done’.
But for me the clincher is that there is no guarantee the police presence downtown will continue. We can already do much better in that regard. How will the ‘community policing’ bicycle patrols get to the downtown area? I’m all for having bicycle patrols in North Brattleboro, but most of the people who go there get there by car, so for the perps, ‘running away’ will be much easier.
I have repeatedly and over a long period of time asked that since we are renovating the Fire Department’s main station as well, a small corner office of that building be used to create a visible police presence in that sector of Elliot Street. A tiny substation, but with a corner window overlooking the street. Why? Well, those of us who have actually researched good policing know that the only real police deterrent to crime occurs when the police presence is actually visible. Today, you get maybe 10 minutes of police presence a day downtown, when a patrol car is passing through. What if there were *ALWAYS* a visible police presence at that section of Elliot Street? I leave the answer up to you.
Downtown presence
Realistically, we NEED a police presence downtown.
The southeast corner office at the firehouse could serve. It’s rarely ever manned, but it’s minimalist at best.
There’s a better space at the Parking Garage. (again, the southeast corner). It’s a sort of waiting room now. People hang out in front of it all day. They’re not waiting for buses. Nobody would be hanging out when there’s a cop shop on the other side of the glass.
With modern communication, dispatch could be usefully situated right there along with an office for patrolmen. There’s room for bicycles and enough off street parking for a couple of cruisers.
The parking office, which is a police function, sits right behind the waiting room. It could be integrated with dispatch.
Re: Hanging out
There’s a mini park right across the street.
How far ahead do you want this thing to go
Passing through the lobby of the municipal building I noticed a sign next to the elevator that said if you’d like to take a tour of the police station inquire at the Dispatch Office (located within about 10 feet of the elevator). If you haven’t done so, perhaps a tour of the current police station might be useful.
Like John, I see the North End as more of a self regulated community due to its stretch of commerce. Typically, it’s the downtown areas that tend to need a stronger police presence. In any town or city, the more you have a cluster of nightlife activity, you’ll find a greater need for the “uniforms.”
Fire, police and EMS services work well together but are likely proprietary as far as standing and responsiveness in the surrounding community. Of the three, it’s the police in the greatest need of a new or refurbished home base, due to the decrepit state of the municipal “basement.” If we have to talk money, I’d rather see a BPD building just built from scratch, with its own specifications within its own location. Not sure what the attraction to the Reformer is, but with floods and sinkholes on or near BMt Road I wouldn’t put emergency services there.
Since emergencies are dependent on response time, and downtown’s hold your larger population center (of gravity :)it’s really a question of where will that building be?
As for cost? Does it matter? Cost is dependent on how far ahead do you want this thing to go.
Hmmm...
Seems like a vote no to consider other options might not be a terrible thing.
Haste makes waste! : )
revenues, expenses and investments
I, too, am a Town Meeting Representative (District 3) and would like to be hearing the opinions of town residents regarding the proposal to move the police station to Putney Road along with upgrading the two fire stations in town.
Based upon views expressed in the local media, conversations around town and iBrattleboro I am currently leaning toward upgrading the police station at it’s current location. We need to upgrade the municipal center building anyway and I view this as a long term investment in the town infrastructure.
I am very nervous about the town taking on the role of landlord to commercial property. I am also quite opposed to taking a current property off of the grand list at the same time we are signing up tenants at the municipal center.
If the Reformer itself lasts three more years (the length of the proposed lease) I will be surprised.
Regarding cuts in town services: Please make a specific proposal for cutting a particular service.
Andy Davis
long term
I generally agree with what you have outlined here. Looking at the long term investment is probably the smartest, and probably the hardest, way to approach things.
In terms of being a landlord, does the town already do this with the other non-town entities in the Municipal Center? BCTV, for example, seems to be somewhat of a tenant in the building. My qualm with the proposal is being a landlord to the paper of record, and how that might influence the relationship.
I think the trick with the municipal center location is to put some effort into making any addition or renovation both work well and look good. The last proposal of a big box in back wasn’t that inspiring. A few simple additional elements could make quite a difference.
I have no services to propose cutting at the moment, though if we cut police services, we’d save significant amounts! : )
Location, location, location
To me this does not make any sense what so ever. I researched towns all through Vermont and New Hampshire and I was unable to find a town that had housed it’s police station on the outskirts of town. Police stations are traditionally located in higher crime and heavily populated areas. I don’t care what argument is stated for placing it at Black Mountain Road, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to understand that it will take longer to respond to calls from that locale.Some months ago I called the police station to complain about the Sunday closing of exit 3 and the officer I spoke with told me that it took a patrol car 20 minutes to get from Putney Road to Canal Street. Granted that was without sirens, but none the less the time lost driving reduces the time in which a neighborhood is patrolled. With that said, time, minutes, even seconds can mean the difference between life and death when responding to a violent crime or life threatening injury. The downtown area and surrounding neighborhoods need a strong police presence. Also you brought up the point about the heavy amount of foot traffic to the police station. somewhere here it was mentioned that that was going to be addressed. My question is how, what is their plan, if they don’t have any immediate answer then it hasn’t been addressed and that statement was just a bunch of hot air.
2 cents
Aside from the cost and the loss of another taxable property, moving the police so far out of downtown is just a bad move. As has been noted, the non-accessibility for those who don’t own cars (and lots of downtown renters don’t have cars) is a big issue. It’s tough enough to go to the police with an issue. Don’t make it even harder.
Police officers, the public and detainees are at risk everyday
Police officers, the public and detainees are at risk everyday in the police station at the Municipal building. The culprit, mold, can have serious short-term and long-term health effects on healthy people and those with compromised health conditions.
Only recently have I read about the needed mold remediation in the police basement so I do not know how long the moldy conditions have existed there. If the mold is readily visible it means that it is firmly established with much more mold that is unseen.
The mold situation should be treated as a separation issue and remediation cleanup should begin immediately, regardless of what plans evolve to relocate the station or remain where it is.
Accusatory Statements
My own experience of contributor “tomaidh” is that he disdains other peoples’ contributions and picks them apart with invalid criticisms. Hence his accusation that one other contributor irrationally believes in conspiracies. Obviously, for example, there was a conspiracy to perpetrate the crimes of September 11, 2001. The question is whose. The larger controversy, however, is (and should be viewed as) the damage perpetrated after the fact; the trillions spent by the USA in prosecuting a de facto war against Muslims. This is still going on.
Just sayin’ … “tomaidh” has confused many discussions on iBrattleboro with irrelevancies … how else would an earnest, long-standing exchange about how to be a good Town Meeting member degenerated into accusations that someone believes conventional narratives about Kennedy’s assassination or 9/11?