If you’re not a Town Representative, you might not know that there is an initiative happening right now to gather enough signatures to put the 2014-15 Town budget up for a referendum.
I support this initiative because the Town Representatives (elected representatives to Town Meeting) are not the be-all and end-all of Town politics … the people of Brattleboro ourselves are. The possibility of a referendum exists for this precise purpose; for a process to be invoked where the Town’s voters can over-rule the Town Representatives.
So I will sign this petition. However, I still support the Town’s budget, and if there is a referendum, I will vote in favor of it … it is unlikely that I will change my mind on the matter. I voted for it at Representative Town Meeting, and the reasons I did so remain the same.
If you are a Town Representative, you have probably already heard about this, and know how to get in touch with the petition-carriers by email. So I’m guessing you will know how to find a petition for you to sign. If you don’t, then ask around … or perhaps someone will append a comment to this article saying who to get in touch with.
Clarifying...
So this is a Representative petition, not a Citizen one? (The number of signatures required is different for each, with a higher bar for non-Reps to have a referendum.) Ie, only Reps can sign this one?
This would be to put the entire budget up for a town-wide vote?
two petitions
There are two petitions floating around from what I hear: one for TM reps and one for the populace at large. I think both may be available at Oasis, but am not sure.
Yes, this petition is to have a special town-wide election on the town budget that was passed at TM the weekend before last. If the petition drive is successful and the budget is voted down, as I understand things, it will be up to the selectboard how to proceed, but the result would be a special TM where another budget is presented. Nobody can dictate to the selectboard what to add to or take from the budget, but from everything I’ve heard Dave Gartenstein say I’d have to believe that they would take this as a vote of no confidence in moving ahead with the police & fire facilities’ renovations. We/they would then be stuck with the question of what to do with the $5 million bond that has already been taken out, and the $700,000 or so that has already been spent on architect’s fees and other development costs.
I am completely torn about all of this. Yes, taxes are out of control in town, but we are way into the process now and money would be lost if we tried to turn our horse back mid-stream. People will argue that a lot more money will be ‘lost’ if we proceed, but other people will argue back that the project is needed.
At TM I heard over and over again about the “health and safety” needs of the police and firefighters. Their quarters surely could be improved, but when I toured the buildings and asked I did not hear of many instances where officers’ health had been impacted by the facilities. I could be forgetting something here, and I certainly wouldn’t want to work in the fire station when the doors are shut and the trucks are idling. I also wouldn’t want to be an officer bringing a drunk and bellicose arrestee down the narrow stairs to the holding cells in the basement of the municipal center, and it does seem a bit of a humiliation to have people who are reporting a crime have to do it in the public first floor hallway.
As I said, I’m torn. From what I hear, though, there are close to 50 Rep’s signatures that have been gathered as of tonight.
Two Petitions
I recall at TM the bonding issue being discussed and how Brattleboro would be stuck with $5M and nothing to show for it. Someone suggested using this same $5M to turn it around and pay it off. Evidentally that can’t be done.
Does anyone know why this same $5M could not be used to upgrade the poiice and fire stations by doing the minimum improvements to insure safety……..ie: never mind the expansions, new buildings and gym among other things. Especially since the original vote was for renovations, not expansions, buying new buildings etc. This, IMO, would make sense.
Is it smart to throw good money after bad ie: spending $20M in order to save $700,000 already spent. Seems the smart thing to do is to cut our loses, work with what we have ($5M bond) while making the fire and police depts safe.
BTW, the number (400+) of voters who cast their “non-binding” vote in favor of the 1% tax greatly exceeded the number(60/70?) of TM meeting members who voted to turn it down. Are we really being represented as we should be?
Already at the minimum, they said
At this year’s RTM, the answer to the question about doing the minimum for health and safety was that this proposal is already at the minimum as it stands. The implication was that everything unnecessary had been cut, and this was the most cost effective way to do it. (We can all debate how true that is, but it was the stated reason).
According to old town meeting records, btw, in the 1950’s, volunteers were tasked with building the West B fire station. It was a way to save money. The fire chief endorsed the idea at the time.
Recall that the vote on the 1% tax this year was a repeat of previous year’s votes. It has been voted down repeatedly, with the low turnout non-binding vote this spring as the one exception. I’d caution that people might vote differently if they knew the result would matter. “Non binding” implies that ‘it doesn’t really matter if I vote, they’ll do as they wish regardless.’
Also note that the Town Reps likely were the type to make the effort to vote, so some are getting to weigh in twice. (Or more, if we count the previous votes on the matter.)
The question of representation is an interesting one. Each rep is representing about 100 people (about 120 reps for 12,000 residents), or perhaps a few fewer if we only count registered voters.
I heard a couple of Reps say they had walked around and talked to 20 or so people in their district. West B invited their district to a meeting to discuss issues. Other than that, I’m not aware of much formal interaction between Reps and those they rep. I don’t see many Reps regularly appearing at Selectboard or School meetings throughout the year, and I’m not aware of many stating their “agenda” for voters to know what they are voting for.
Who does a Rep represent is a great question. When I did it, I felt really uncomfortable. First, I knew that for every yea in my district there was probably a nay, which left the decision pretty much to me. I was representing myself. Beyond that, the issues of the day changed from what was presented and discussed beforehand, and there was no way for me to go check with constituents about the newly proposed amendments and such from the floor. Again, I was in the position of representing myself. (There is also an element of peer pressure. It’s hard to be the only person objecting to something – we all want to seem like we are nice and getting along, and doing what is expected of us.)
So we end up with a room full of people elected primarily because they have name recognition (not on issues per se), pretty much voting how they personally feel about issues (especially those that arise in the room on Town Meeting day), mixed with a bit of procedural confusion and peer pressure. In that sense, the voters elect people to go make decisions about town matters, but have little invested in the process.
To be fair, I should criticize the voters as well. The number of people voting has been steadily dropping for the last decade, and a handful of voters are making decisions. If the trend continues, a number about equal to (and probably consisting of) Town Reps will be making all the decisions.
A puzzle, for sure, for those who value democracy.
But . . .
Chris, much of this seems mute to me in light of the fact that in election after election there are not enough people standing up to be town reps. The process is really rather minimal — I think 20 signatures on a piece of paper of people in your district. Since I moved to town 10 years ago I can’t remember one election where all of the seats in my district were filled before the election.
representation
A representative represents all the people within the district they are representing. Not just voters, but all the people. However it is of course just the voters who choose who that will be. A representative understands that he or she was chosen because they received the most votes. Not even, necessarily, the majority. Voters should understand that the people they are electing would simply be most likely to vote the way they, the electors, would. We all understand that there is undoubtedly widely divergent views within any one district. Thus, obviously, the representative is not, in any given vote, representing everyone. However voters should expect reps to at least fulfill promises during campaigns. Or have a good explanation why they didn’t.
This, as far as I know, has been the accepted understanding since our democracy began.
Stuck with $5 million
Now, how is it that Brattleboro would be “stuck” with $5 million?
Most banks won’t release construction money until there’s some construction. And most municipal bond rates are so low that towns can actually earn money on interest while it sits in an investment account. Have they already managed to SPEND $5 million?
It sounds like the usual Town Office flim-flam. The same flim-flam that convinced Town Meeting “representatives” to approve a bond in the first place.
Yuck!
I take offense to these remarks. However they are absolutely meaningless because they are made anonymously. More cheap-shot sniping from behind a rock! And extremely ignorant as well.
I don't understand your
I don’t understand your response . These are people’s opinions -regardless of whether they use a ‘web’ name or not – everyone is still entitled to express their opinion. You’ve made no secret of the fact that you think the proposed budget is fine. That’s your opinion which you are free and welcome to express.
Just because someone is discussing a different view point or relying on different information to base their opinion on doesn’t mean they are ignorant or meaningless. What is ignorant is crying foul whenever anyone expresses an opinion or idea that is different from yours. I think anyone who visits this site on a regular basis knows who people are whether they use their full name or not.It’s pretty difficult to ‘hide’ your identity on this site or in this town. I find your remarks offensive. That’s my opinion.
Fair's Fair
In small town politics, I’m sorry, but I don’t see a reason for hiding behind anonymity — I think that’s not fair discourse. I call that as I see it on this site, and I will continue to do so, no matter how many people defend it as “web name” or not. These are not the times of “Publius” … this is a town of 14000 people in Vermont in the twenty-first century.
It is fair of me to say that “town office flim-flam” is a cheap shot. It is in fact, a cheap shot. But it is a shot that misses — sorry mister sniper-from- behind-a-rock … precisely because the shooter cannot be seen … precisely because no one knows who the shooter is.
I respect people who stand behind what they say. I respect people who make themselves accountable for their actions and statements. I’ll take the risk of calling you and mister Maus out. I’m fine with that. I just call things as I see them. Maybe I don’t see everything, but I think I see enough to make the call.
I'm not sure what you feel
I’m not sure what you feel you are “calling me out ” on – I use my first initial and my last name on this site – something that many, many people do, including one of the founders of ibrattleboro. Your preoccupation with the alleged anonymity is obsessive and somewhat comical. The fact that you choose to use your full name when commenting means little -it doesn’t make you right and it doesn’t mean your comments/opinions/statements are any more credible than anyone else’s.Your “sniper” analogy (which you seem to be particularly fond of using)is neither accurate nor appropriate. As I previously remarked there is almost no anonymity on this site – or in this town, for that matter.
We are, indeed, a town of 14,000 people in Vermont in the 21st century. We are able to communicate with each other in ways never before possible and we all have the right to choose any ‘pen name’ we fancy. Doesn’t invalidate what we say. Would you suggest that the many extraordinary books that were penned by authors using pen names are worthless? Perhaps you would.
Not so Anon E Maus
You know what people can do if they don’t like anonymous users? Don’t post replies to anonymous users, or don’t post on a site that has anonymous usernames for its anonymous users at all! Squawking about anonymity on a site that has anonymous usernames for its anonymous users is just a way to deflect the real question:
Why would the town be stuck with $5 million? Why is the decision to build a $14 million facility irreversible even before a single stick has been cut? Have town officials managed to spend $5 million without even breaking ground on a facility?
BTW, if anyone wants to research town office flim-flam for their own satisfaction, the iBrattleboro archives will provide a rich treasure trove of information. I suggest the search terms “Parking garage,” “PAYT,” “Citizens’ Petition,” “new traffic lights,” and “Police Fire bond” for starters. I’m sure some of the other anonymous users here can suggest a few more topics.
Bond vs. Construction Loan
Hey Maus, It’s pretty clear that the town is not mandated to proceed with the $14 million project, the voters will decide that later this month. But the $5 million bond that’s been taken out isn’t the same thing as a construction loan. I think that a little less than $1 million of it has already been spent, and it isn’t possible to simply repay the $4 million — there’s no early repay mechanism like with a mortgage. I don’t know what is possible with regard to investing the $4 million and simply repaying it on its regular schedule over its 20 year term. That’s a good question for the informational meeting scheduled on the 9th. There is one issue of front-loaded interest that comes with bonds.
Thanks for the insight
“There is one issue of front-loaded interest that comes with bonds.”
Yes, as I understand municipal bonds, the interest is the first thing to be paid off. So I can see how the town could be stuck with that.
I understand that a bond is different than a construction loan, with the bond being an investment vehicle on the other end – so I can see why there may not be an opportunity to pay it off early. I guess what I didn’t know is that the full bond amount is available immediately, and is apparently not secured by the property/project.
I’m surprised that $1 million has been spent over the course of less than a year without breaking ground, but perhaps that’s reasonable. Presumably, what has been purchased includes some planning and permitting that could be used for a future or revised project.
What I really don’t understand is the idea of being “stuck” with the remaining $4 million or so. Money not spent is an asset, not a liability. It could be invested and drawn down to pay the bond over the life of the bond, or invested and withdrawn to be expended on a project once voters settle on a solution to the $14 million police/fire facility plan.
It’s not an ideal situation for anyone, any way you look at it.
"Maus"
You ask loaded questions, based on false premises; ones which you yourself, if anyone, are perhaps best capable of answering. Why don’t you find out the answers yourself, and then share them here?
If you don’t live in Brattleboro, why should I, as an elected Representative, take the time to answer your question?
It seems to me that posting anonymously is more of a “flim flam” than your out-of-hand criticisms of folks in Town government who are very public and very accountable for their actions. Such criticism of our Town government, based only on the “buzz” of conversations on iBrattleboro, seem totally irrelevant to me. I dare you to reveal your true identity: it would give you the benefit of having a real conversation with us.
I sense a lazy and destructive streak at work in your personality. That’s the reason for the anonymity, perhaps … so you can say things that would discredit someone speaking publicly in our town’s colloquium.
Ad Hominem
Quote:
I sense a lazy and destructive streak at work in your personality. That’s the reason for the anonymity, perhaps … so you can say things that would discredit someone speaking publicly in our town’s colloquium.
Another quote:
I urge the reader to discern whether criticism or attacks are made ‘ad hominem’ (to the person) or address their actions. I feel the former is completely inappropriate in public discourse
The first quote sure looks like an ad hominem attack to me
An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.
Nope
It’s just that I think anonymity in an open public colloquium about real issues affecting real people is essentially destructive. Words can really hurt people. I have friends who have been deeply hurt by things said anonymously (and otherwise) on iBrattleboro.
And I won’t apologize for impugning someone’s actions or statements when they have acted anonymously … that would be patently ridiculous, because the reason they have copped anonymity is precisely to avoid any consequences accruing to them from their own careless, negative actions.
“Anon E Maus” or whatever the monicker is, is not fully a person in the context of this discourse. They are, precisely, a cypher. That is why if they want to acquit themselves ‘in the light of day’, they should post under their own name.
As you see to have a fit
You’ve made your position abundantly clear, John. It’s your choice to self-define this community however you’d like. That I find it narrow-minded is of no consequence.
From my perspective- when a voice is lost- whether it be “homey”, or say “Larry Bloch”- two individuals we won’t be hearing from again- the formal “veracity” of their moniker is immaterial- what’s gone is their essence and intelligence.
If that's your real name...
Here’s the thing: I didn’t ask you any question. You don’t have to answer any question I ask on iBrattleboro. I don’t expect you to answer any question I ask. And frankly, I just don’t care if you answer my question or not. Your name and your “representation” are not any more meaningful to me than that of any other user here.
In fact, since you can’t seem to ignore anon-e-maus iBrattleboro users, I suggest you block all of my posts – I think you can still block users on the new iBrattleboro. That way you will be freed from the gnawing frustration of your belief that any statements, opinions, requests for opinions or questions, posed by an anon-e-maus user are directed to you personally.
Sorry, KAlden, you're right ...
… and I was wrong. I mis-phrased the remark you’re objecting to. Very sorry.
But I’ll stand my ground on anonymity. This isn’t some sort of trendy IM service; it’s a community forum, run by friends of mine, and in a sense I feel I’m defending it, especially from people who would use it to run other people down or attack their reputations. Intentionally attacking other peoples’ reputations has two names under law: slander and libel.
Public officials are ‘fair game’, or at least their actions are. But sometimes the conflictual actions we see in politics are merely personality clashes or attempts to devalue someone in office so the slinger or someone else can challenge them. I urge the reader to discern whether criticism or attacks are made ‘ad hominem’ (to the person) or address their actions. I feel the former is completely inappropriate in public discourse, and the latter is not, and should happen wherever it’s warranted.
The superhero trait I'd most like to have is
Anonymity!
sorry dude, you're just on the wrong side of the issue
This is just another website, using the WWW as created and developed by humans who insisted that some serious degree of anonymity be part of the specification. A prominent court has already ruled that an IP address is not a person.
Your “small-town” exception is exceptionally backwards; there’s a lot of reasond to express one’s opinion under a pseudonym. Have you read “The Lottery” or seen the film version (which I saw when I was 8 and was completely shocked they thought it was age-appropriate)? It’s a short story written c. 1947 by a woman living in Bennington who then became the first recipient of hate mail.
And without anonymity and snarkiness, how would you know you’re on the web?
minimum cost of project
I believe the question that was asked at Rep Town Meeting was this:
“Can we fix the health and safety problems at our police and fire facilities for the 5 million dollars we have already agreed to borrow?”
The answer to this was, “no.”
The question that was not asked or answered was, “What is the minimum cost of fixing the health and safety issues at our police and fire facilities?”
I know that the fire/police committee worked with the select board to reduce the cost by $400,000. Could it be done for $10 million? $12 million? Maybe, maybe not, but the question was not asked or answered.
To be fair, there are more than health and safety issues at these facilities. The structures themselves are outdated. Also, getting serious about energy efficiency will cost money in the short term to save more money in the long term. Just buying a bandaid will not cut it in our situation.
Budget Savings
The fact is, we don’t NEED to spend this 14 million dollars at a time when the budget is in crisis and the whole country and world know it’s time to save and be frugal rather than spend. Another eight or ten years in these same buildings would have no impact on services.
Second, a few ways to save money I have seen around town. Yesterday, a large, shiny spanking new “Street Sweeper” crawling down Western Avenue at a snails pace. I’ve seen this before – no sand or debris on the road but a driver, paid and with benefits in a Town owned truck sweeping the street at one mile per hour. What is wrong with this picture? And WHO made the decision to purchase that truck and hire someone to drive it while being paid and with town benefits at a snails pace? Further, I went by this truck and it was at about Berkley Veller. 45 minutes later I left home and it was not even as far as the new hairdresser/Crosby Street – AND he was backing up. WHY AREN’T WE CONTRACTING THIS WORK AND DIRECTING IT TO PLACES THAT REQUIRE IT? Why are we paying for this truck, it’s gas and it’s driver who is sweeping roads with noting on them. (I actually have a picture of this happening on my street – not a leaf on the street, no sand – and a passerby and I were laughing at the WASTE. But it isn’t funny. How much did that truck cost and how much does the gas and upkeep and that employee cost per HOUR or snailing along? WHO made that decision and when? HOW MUCH DID JUST THE TRUCK COST regardless of the enormous associated costs? This is a perfect example of bad decision making and, worse, NO OVERSIGHT.
Second wasteful thing – we could easily fund a police position with benefits AND save LIVES by policing and ticketing travelers on Western Avenue for their obvious disregard for the law on their way into town.
We need a spending freeze and we need tight oversight. These are the realities everyone else is facing. There is no real employment base here in Brattleboro aside from the school and town government – so let’s stop pretending there is. A freeze on the project, a freeze on spending and definitely in town government and services a freeze on hiring AND employee donation to benefit packages – like everyone else. Headline: Brattleboro Faces Reality Project begins NOW. Plenty of folks who take those jobs at starting salaries if anyone doesn’t like it.
Street Sweeping
As a bicyclist in town I am deeply appreciative of the street sweepers. Having sand and gravel on the streets is dangerous to us two-wheelers. I also know as a town meeting rep. that all such large capital purchases as a street sweeper must be approved by town meeting.
Swept Streets
I bicycled out to the Chelsea Royal this morning for breakfast. There was definitely some sign of street sweeping having gone on, but still many areas with gravel and dirt piled as high as an inch deep.
Thanks, road crew, your work is appreciated. AND I understand that it’s been a hell of a winter and spring, and we might not get clean roads as quickly as we might like.
DPW says
DPW says:
“I thought you may be interested that the sweeper was purchased in
2005. This winter we put out 1000 yards of sand on the paved roadways.
That’s approximately 9000 wheel barrel loads of sand! The sweeper picks up
the sand and winter litter before it enters the stormwater system and goes
into our waterways. “