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Feb 20, 2003 to Feb 6, 2013

Take The "U" Out Of JUKRISLIMS!


The misappropriation of 'Unitarian' into the collective initialism of JUKRISLIMS remains one of the worst things to happen to human spirituality since the days of Leviticus.

Lumping Unitarians in with Christians is the same to me as lumping Unitarians in with the Jews, and lumping us in with Mohammedans and Krishna worshippers is even worse. Doing so has effectively denied Unitarian people a rightful place of their own, and has jeopardized our future. It would be equally offensive to me if Republicans had misappropriated our Unitarian lifestyle.

Whether one thinks of themselves as Monotheist, Polytheist, Atheist, Pantheist, or Anti-theist, Unitarians are the best future for human spirituality and the peace of humanity.

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 #

The U stays where it is!

Clever MT, but not even close to your namesake.

Samuel Clemens, in fact, likely would have enjoyed and agreed with some of my public statements about “The Jukrislims.”

When discussing Judaism, Christianity and Islam with people, it occurred to me how much time was wasted on the ridiculously cluttered crossovers between those religions that muddled the conversation. I have long considered those three religions as really one Abrahamic group, simply with 3 different names, but really constituting one bloated religious ship of state.

About ten years ago I coined the word Jukrislims to encapsulate all three religions. The fact that they have three different names means nothing to me. They are all, for all intents and purposes, of one body.

Jukrislms is not a word in uppercase.
It stands for
Ju > Jews
Kris > Christians
Lims > Muslims

There is no “U” to take out.
To mimic my article ‘Take the “B” out of LGBTQ’ one should, for example, write Take the “Ju” out of Jukrislims.

 
 #

Misses the Mark

Poor Vidda, can’t get it right.

He completely misunderstands the acronym “JUKRISLIMS.” And he is in total confusion as to the meaning of “B” in LGBTQ.

 
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The way you’re goin’ you ain’t gonna be no Mark Twain

You’re too new to iBrattleboro to know the Vidda experience. If I were you I wouldn’t jump too quickly to 'believe' that you can characterize me as to what I get right or misunderstand.

I coined the “word” Jukrislims. Jukrislims is not written in upper case, and I did not and do not intend it to be an acronym.

And, I’m a lifelong bisexual from my earliest fantasies before 9 years old throughout a wonderfully sexually active life that most people can only dream about.

http://ibrattleboro.com/sections/oped/take-b-out-lgbtq

 
 #

Hey, Vidda..the comments by

Hey, Vidda..the comments by "Mark Twain" seem to be of the variety of those posters who sometimes appear on ibrattleboro. Their intent is not to offer anything substantial, profound or even remotely humorous. Their intent is only to agitate and irritate. As one of the most prolific commenters on this site and someone who can be counted on for thoughtful and provocative posts you don't need to give a minute' s worth of thought to his (or hers) sad attempt to be "clever". I, for one enjoy the "Vidda experience". At least 99 percent of the time .... :-)

 
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Thanks Kris! I’m proud to be

Thanks Kris! I’m proud to be a 99 percenter :)
That’s funny, I just met someone recently who described themselves as being an “irritant.” Well, all are welcome to this site. Although, there is something somewhat insidious about a contributor whose intend is only to irritate or agitate. Samuel Clemens deserves a better use of his name.

 
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Vidda could not help rising to the bait...

because Vidda is an alpha male.

 
 #

Go fish elsewhere

If you’re participation in this site is as a baiter, as well as an irritant, you might consider fishing elsewhere.

Since you are behind a screen name, we don’t know who or what you are.

Many people here know who I am and when they wish to typecast me, they have good standing to do so.

Whatever you are, you are certainly not a humorist,as was stated elsewhere above.

 
 #

Fish is Fish

The serious point here is that Vidda does to others what is distasteful to himself. He objects to being lumped together with Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered people - he wants his own identify to be respected. Yet, to express his contempt for people of faith, Vidda smears with the same brush Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

Individual distinctions do not matter: You are all JUKRISLIMS. Vidda's objection to patriarchy is corrupted by unrefined hatred.

From pulpits and pews every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday -- including locally -- Love and decency are affirmed. Of our neighbors who most strongly support the right to love whomever you love safe from persecution, many of those who are most supportive happen to be people of faith.

The struggle against religious bigotry is lead by people of faith who worship a God of love in welcoming congregetations. Yet Vidda heaps scorn on every Christian, every Muslim, every Jew: You are all JUKRISLIMS. Sadly, Vidda's reaction to bigotry is bigoted.

Perhaps is is OK for Vidda not refrain from doing to others what is distasteful to himself: After all the Golden Rule is a JUKRISLIM concept.

 
 #

I think I know who you are. It explains a lot if I’m right

While it is true that I personally feel that “I” should not be lumped into LGQ, you missed the point that my experience from the 70s until now is conjoined with probably hundreds or more of Bi’s I knew or met in NYC and elsewhere over the years. Too many Bi’s also feel this way.

In a real sense, we speak for each other.

Of course, I like individual distinctions a lot. Who doesn’t? You missed the point that I am supportive of straights, gays, Bi’s, Trans, etc.

However, despite the gay flag colors, the RAINBOW icon never did apply only to the misnamed LGBTQ. Many Bi’s do not consider themselves to be part of the straights or gays and do not wish to be included with them. I have also talked to Trans over the years who also do not like being included with LGQ.

We can now skip your claim that this is a me issue.

It’s not unusual for people devoted to a god, to see that god as a “God of love.” Any cursory reading of your “good book,” however, belies that notion quickly and is not justified by the historical facts.

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, the creationist books, could easily be called the Slaughter House of God.

Funny that you should mention hatred -- as practitioners of that god, Jukrislims clearly are not the best source to find love of humanity, as witnessed by their never ending bloody their history.

Now, who are you -- only to say, for now, you are a woman, you have a male screen name to disguise that (which is fine, generally), you live in the Brattleboro greater area, you are rather humorless, and that you self describe yourself as aggressive by nature?

 
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Nix that "After all the Golden Rule is a JUKRISLIM concept."

"After all the Golden Rule is a JUKRISLIM concept."
Wrong.

I already knew that the "golden rule" as we call it in modern times did not derive from the Jukrislims.

The Golden Rule was founded by all the major philosophical schools of antiquity, in Babylon,China, India, Egypt and Greece.

It was incorporated into the punishment laws of the Jukrislims as in, an 'eye for an eye.'

The golden rule originated as a concept of retribution, not nearly as benign as you and other christians portray it.

 
 #

Anyone who is a thinking,

Anyone who is a thinking, intelligent human being knows that more murders; more hatred; more bigotry, racism, misogyny, more wars and destruction have been caused by organized religions than by any other reason. People of "faith" all over the world use their religious beliefs to slaughter other human beings; to destroy lives; to rape women and children; to steal and destroy. I am not for one instant saying that there are not good people who are Christians or Jews or Muslims or members of any other religion that exists. But, I believe that there are far more people who interpret their holy books to feel justified in causing pain and devastation and hatred. The Bible is a punitive book and far too many people use it as a stepping off point for despicable, horrific behavior. I have many friends who believe in God - I recognize that they find a form of comfort in their beliefs and I respect that. But, those same friends are good people ; people who understand that the Bible or any religious tome was not meant to be interpreted literally -or at all. They are people who trust and love and respect and believe in their fellow human beings and live their lives by a code of " Treat people well. Do good in the world". I think they would live by those same beliefs regardless of whether they stopped going to church or not. I have no use for any religion that claims some people are less than others; that women have no rights; that how much you tithe each year determines how much "God" loves you. What's "loving" about that?

 
 #

Unitarianism

Just a clarification for the public about Unitarian-Universalism (UU)-- this faith group/religion only recently branched out from or is considered "post" christian. The term "Unitarian" is rooted firmly in christian belief. It is a contrast to trinitarian. In the 1960's the Unitarians and Universalists merged to form UU (the Brattleboro congregations merged locally before the national merge happened).

While some old churches maintain only Unitarian or Universalist in their building title/name, they generally do not identify their religion as only one or the other, and identify instead as Unitarian-Universalist. Though many in UU congregations do not use a christian basis for their faith, there are many who still do.

Yes, I would agree that it is not a specifically christian religion anymore. However, it still maintains some of the trappings of christianity -- most buildings used for worship are still called churches, the services primarily are held on Sunday mornings and follow a pretty standard church format, for example. It doesn't mean there aren't changes that have happened and continue to happen. Quite proudly, and perhaps most important, current UUs draw on many sources for inspiration and encourage each person to pursue a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning."

For more information, there are several congregations in the area: Brattleboro, Chester, Springfield, VT; West Chesterfield, Keene, Walpole, NH; Bernardston, Greenfield, Northfield MA as well as the national organization's website: uua.org.

Currently, some people who consider themselves UU or affiliated with UU beliefs, are working to redefine what unitarian and universalist (also rooted in christianity) mean that are not related to christianity.

 
 #

It interesting Andie that

It interesting Andie that each of the three Jukrislim religions are so inadequate to the task that they generate dissent spinoffs who need to re-interpret their beliefs ad infinitum into hundreds of sects. And, many of them call bisexuals confused?

You’d of thought one of them would have got it right by now. It makes me more glad that I am a strident Jukrislim-Free feminist by nature.

 
 #

I think UU does get it right on sexuality and gender identity

As a "friend" in the local UU congregation, I can say with pretty strong assurance, that people of many sexual orientations/practices and gender identities are welcomed warmly, at least here, and the limited experience and knowledge I have of the bigger denomination seems very welcoming as well. I can't say we are all as fully educated as one might like (is anyone, really? and on any difficult social topic, not just this one), but we are willing to listen, to accept and to learn. I don't think you will find the attitude of the congregation to be one of thinking bisexuals are confused.

Point of information: A "friend" is someone who participates, but chooses intentionally not to become a full member -- for whatever personal reasons -- of the congregation. My reasons have to do with an unwillingness to fully support any organized religion, even one that does a decent job of representing a lot of what I believe and giving me a place to explore, share and expand my spirit, my soul.

 
 #

Familiar

I am somewhat familiar with them, and am inclined to cautiously agree with you on some points.

 
 #

You might be a UU and not know it

“Unitarian Universalism is composed of diverse communities operating without a common belief about God, the universe, and death. Instead of creed, UUs share a spirit and vision of radical inclusivity, individual agency, and social justice. It is a safe space to stand out, stand up, and change your mind, particularly during life’s transitions. UUs embrace personal discovery and growth through learning, engagement, and service. Our only doctrine is love.” - Victoria Mitchell
More seriously, you might be a UU and not know it if you long to be part of a spiritual community in which you have the freedom to explore Atheism, Agnosticism, Art, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Islam, Judaism, Paganism, Science, and many other related paths all within the same congregation.
You might be a UU and not know it if you trust your own firsthand experience — what you know for yourself to be true — as much or more than what traditional authorities tell you is true.
You might be a UU if you believe in the “inherent worth and dignity of every person,” if you believe in working for social, environmental, and economic justice, and that “We need not think alike to love alike.”

 
 #

Twain was nominally Presbyterian.

However, he was often critical:
“There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing, and predatory as it is—in our country particularly and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree—it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime—the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of to-day, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor his Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilled.” - Autobiography of Mark Twain

This would have been considered very shocking in his day.

 
 #

300 years late to the party

Shocking maybe, but not novel.

The Founders, the Lights of the Enlightenment, even Baroque thinkers, and many before them expounded on such matters.

The fact that we STILL have not absorbed and applied the message..that is the Shocker

 
 #

Spirituality is unproven conjecture

"There are essentially two types of nonbelievers: nonbelievers who are called atheists and nonbelievers who are not belief-dependent.

An atheist is one who is without god. Atheists then are often described as non-believers by people who believe in a god or are members of a religion.

There are atheists who claim to be spiritual, or religious people who say that atheism is a form of spirituality. More often, though, it is believers and spiritualists who shove atheism into a spiritual or believer corner. Others believe atheism is a type of religion.

Not all atheists are nonbelievers. Some simply do not believe in gods and religions.

Other atheists are people who are not belief-dependent, but haven’t really acquired the distinction and continue to allow believers to call them atheists without realizing the difference.

Since spirituality, like gods, is unproven conjecture, a full nonbeliever will not believe in god, religions or collective human or universal spirituality here on earth or elsewhere in the universe." {ibid}

 
 #

Samuel Clemens and the Jews

"Samuel Clemens, in fact, likely would have enjoyed and agreed with some of my public statements about 'The Jukrislims.'"

Actually, Samuel Clemens wrote of his respect for Jews, and honored the contributions from Jewish culture to human civilization.

 
 #

...Would have likely ""agreed with some""...

As I said in my quote you reply to here, that -

Samuel Clemens in fact, likely would have enjoyed and ""agreed with some"" of my public statements about The Jukrislims.

This gives me the latitude to indicate that I'm not really intending to "speak for" Clemens.

Just like many of the nonreligious and atheist Jews who are friends of mine in NYC, Clemens like them, "likely" continued to appreciate the culture, arts, literature, etc of people who identified as Jews, but only from their cultural heritage standpoint, not their Jewish religion or belief system.

 
 #

Some of Vidda's best friends...

are Jews.

(But all religious Jews are criminals, as judged by Alpha Vidda.)

 
 #

Wow. What an ugly thing to

Wow. What an ugly thing to say. You're really quite a piece of work - and I don't mean that in a complimentary way.

 
 #

Ugly thing to say... piece of work?

"The only good Jukrislim (patriarch) is a dead one. "
Vidda


That is not some momentary excess. It typifies much of Vidda's "scholarly" contributions on this site. 

Only good Jukrislims are dead Jukrislims includes not only religious Jews, but it includes all Episcopals, Congregationalists, Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, regardless of whether sexism is preached from their pulpits, or if they are members of welcoming congregations.

Doesn't matter who they are, what they believe, what their practices are: They are all Jukrislims, only good if they are dead. Hate truly has no place in Vermont, or anywhere. Bigotry is bigotry, whether it comes in the cloak of religion, or masquarades as "enligthtened" social commentary.

 
 #

Wanton disregard for human life threads thru Jukrislim History

Gee, you left out Unitarians...

From a historical perspective, Nina Paley effectively conveys the wanton disregard for human life that threads through the history of the Jews, Chrislians and Muslims (Jukrislims).

BTW, "sexism is preached from their pulpits" is only part of the Slaughter House of God syndrome.

The greatest holocaust known to ‘man’ is not the Jews or Blacks --- it is women.

You are, Madame Mark Twain a fine patriarch yourself – "and I don't mean that in a complimentary way."

 
 #

Nina Paley - “Seder Masochism- A Self-Hating Haggadah”

“In 2012 she began work on a project called "Seder Masochism," an unorthodox animated film of The Exodus, narrated by recordings of Passover Seders. Phase I was an experiment with recordings, the funding for it was gathered via Kickstarter service. The real movie will be produced in Phase II.”

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1850676295/seder-masochism-phase-i

Born to an American Jewish family, Nina Paley’s full title Is “Seder Masochism - A Self-Hating Haggadah” Check out Nina and what Haggadah is in the world of Wiki (or do your own link search).

 
 #

Out of context?

The quote is not Nina Paley’s, is is from a comment signed by Vidda. The putrid hate of that quote speaks for itself. That Vidda is now trying to distance himself from his own words is the most eloquent admission of the shameful nature of his intemperate remarks.

Vidda has explained that Jukrislim is a collective word including everyone of the Jewish faith, everyone of the Christian faith, and everyone of the Muslim faith. Thus the only good one is a dead one quote means the following:

“The only good Jew is a dead Jew.”

“The only good Christian is a dead Christian.”

“The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.”

 
 #

Low Swinging

I don’t think anyone else reading this thread thought that I said the quote is from Nina Paley. I don’t think you really do either. But the alpha in you will look for any wedge, won’t you?

It’s okay for you to express your opinion about me. I’ve heard you before.

But there’s something low swinging about you when you have to twist things in an obvious distortion to make your point.

My real context of the Jukrislims is in their historical beliefs and dogma. For instance, people today are not hanging and burning witches on the stake, but that and thousands of Jukrislim atrocities are long established over thousands of years before this post of yours was published...and thousand more continue to this day.

And, like any ‘body-host’, there is good flesh and rotten flesh. Today, too many Jukrislims still support the rotten flesh, known as atrocity ‘patriarchy.’

You also try to individualize my comments you take out of context to imply that I want all Jukrislims dead. Even my Jukrislim friends and family who willingly discuss this with me have never said anything like you do. Only a stranger to me like you would make those claims.

The word ugliness was mentioned earlier about you above, and subsequently you’ve not said anything to redeem you of that.

 
 #

Saudi Witches

<< people today are not hanging and burning witches on the stake>>
True enough, but the Saudis beheaded at least 6 men and women last year for "Witchcraft"

 
 #

Which of the religions that

Which of the religions that you list above have not -at one time or another preached misogyny; bigotry and racism from their pulpits? Baptist churches are still calling for less than equal rights for gays and lesbians; Episcopal priests have been defrocked for officiating at gay marriages; Catholics preach that women should serve their husbands and hand over control of their own bodies to the government and church; Orthodox Jews consider their women unclean during menstruation and demand that no one sees their wives hair except her husband. Every religion (with the exception of UU) has and still does treat women and gays and , in some instances, people of color -as less worthy human beings.
That is not to say that their are not individual houses of worship; local congregations that welcome all; that reach out a hand in peace and truly try to help the community they preside in. But, the patriarchy of each religion- whether Christian , Jew, Muslim - is based on a belief that men are the leaders; the ones who know best; who are entrusted to make decisions for everyone; who control the masses and make the rules.
To pretend that it is otherwise is foolish and untrue.
There are always some heated conversations on ibrattleboro; lots of varied personalities with sometimes very different points of view - all trying to have their voices heard. It is both a frustrating and wonderful thing that we are all able to participate. But, I have to say, "Mark Twain" (who 'm sure would be rolling over in his grave to know his name was being used in such a way) you have brought a level of nastiness to this site that I haven't seen before. You obviously have an ax to grind - I'm not even sure what it is at this point. You perhaps said it best "Hate has no place in Vermont" It seems like you have more than enough hatred to go around.

 
 #

Ugliness of Spirit

I can’t help but agree with KAlden that there is some ugliness of spirit behind the inaptly named Mark Twain here.

The Mark Twain screen name on this site, being a self-described "Alpha" female. it shouldn't be surprising that she digs up quotes, that I think are out of context.

My full quote is:
“I guess most people know my feelings about this. Thanks Nina. Takes a lot of guts to communicate this message about the awful patriarchs. The only good Jukrislim (patriarch) is a dead one. And, they sure are living and dying to prove it.”

My quote comes from the post here titled 3 Minute History Lesson' http://ibrattleboro.com/sections/creative/3-minute-history-lesson

This Land is Mine" is a video by Nina Paley, originally posted on Vimeo.
The song is playing as the three religions, Jews, Christians, Muslims, slaughter each other down through the centuries.

It is in that context what I meant by – “The only good Jukrislim (patriarch) is a dead one. And, they sure are living and dying to prove it.”

The video is worth seeing it if you haven’t already. It is disgusting, yet poignant...and spot on. Thanks again Nina Paley!

 
 #

Out of context?

The quote is not Nina Paley’s, is is from a comment signed by Vidda.

The putrid hate of that quote speaks for itself. That Vidda is now trying to distance himself from his own words is the most eloquent admission of the shameful nature of his intemperate remarks.

Vidda has explained that Jukrislim is a collective word including everyone of the Jewish faith, everyone of the Christian faith, and everyone of the Muslim faith. Thus the only good one is a dead one quote means the following:

“The only good Jew is a dead Jew.”

“The only good Christian is a dead Christian.”

“The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.”

 
 #

Low Swinging

I don’t think anyone else reading this thread thought that I said the quote is from Nina Paley. I don’t think you really do either. But the alpha in you will look for any wedge, won’t you?

It’s okay for you to express your opinion about me. I’ve heard you before.

But there’s something low swinging about you when you have to twist things in an obvious distortion to make your point.

My real context of the Jukrislims is in their historical beliefs and dogma. For instance, people today are not hanging and burning witches on the stake, but that and thousands of Jukrislim atrocities are long established over thousands of years before this post of yours was published...and thousand more continue to this day.

And, like any ‘body-host’, there is good flesh and rotten flesh. Today, too many Jukrislims still support the rotten flesh, known as atrocity ‘patriarchy.’

You also try to individualize my comments you take out of context to imply that I want all Jukrislims dead. Even my Jukrislim friends and family who willingly discuss this with me have never said anything like you do. Only a stranger to me like you would make those claims.

The word ugliness was mentioned earlier about you above, and subsequently you’ve not said anything to redeem you of that.

 
 #

plenty of ug to go around

The actual Mark Twain at least brought humor to the topic of religion: "God made man in his own image and man promptly returned the favor".

I share several of the posters opinions of distrust around organized religion. This distrust has been going on for a very long time. There have also been people of all faiths throughout history who took strength in their own set of beliefs to serve others with courage and humility - often speaking truth to power and losing their lives for their beliefs. Then there are the self-serving parasites who consolidate financial and political power by claiming to speak for some god or another.

Some have quipped that the 'UCC' of United Church of Christ really stands for 'Unitarians Considering Christ'. The UCC is a very liberal, 'open and affirming', and democratic denomination of seekers that believe god is still speaking ('don't put a period where god put a comma'). We are not ruled by literal doctrine but by the spirit of love that binds people together, in times of need, pain and suffering - and in times of joy, music and dance.

People of all faiths - and those without - have sat in UCC pews and been welcomed with respect. You certainly do need to be part of an organized religion to serve others, but a whole lot of serving others is done by area congregations - both locally and around the world. Are there crimes committed in the name of religion and covered up by religion? Yes.

"How can you love god who you cannot see, if you cannot love your neighbor who you can see?" Most of the world's crimes have been perpetuated by viewing people as 'others'. Central to religion is the ability to see other's as we see ourselves - not as an 'other'... My own personal litmus test: When religion is used to divide people up into 'us and them' it just took a very dangerous turn. Conversely, when religion guides us toward understanding across all manner of barriers and distinctions... that can be a beautiful thing.

Andy

 
 #

Andy is right

I have been trading barbs with a barbarian. My only consolation is that the real Mark Twain got pissed off at times, and he did address many issues straight on, not always through the mode of humor.

This individual is still pissing me off. He now demurs that Jukrislim is an intellectual construct to put the role of patriarchal religions into an historical context. Fine if it were true, but it is intellectually dishonest. What pisses me off most is that, on this site, he has accused individuals of complicity with patriarchal crimes, simply because they had said something which tangentially identified themselves as having a religious faith.

I am going to let Vidda get the last word, and thanks for letting me see myself through your perspective... we can all use a reality check now and then.
MT

 
 #

Link to "This Land is Mine"

 
 #

More from Paley

 
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You can’t tell the players without a pogrom!

Wow. As was said above, you, Madame Twain, "are a piece of work."

Well, thank you for your generous, yet pissed off last word to that effect, to wit, to “let Vidda get the last word.”

I’ll use this space allotted to me to say that I was hoping that the beauty of thought that Andy was imparting to our readers here on this page would be the “last word.”

Next up, let’s see, 'MT,' if you are as good as ‘your' last word.

Following, of course, the apropos tomaidh link for the link to Nina Paley’s::: '''Who’s Killing Who? A Viewer’s Guide Because you can’t tell the players without a pogrom!'''

 

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